Rebel Justice

92. The Fight to End FGM Part 1: The Vavengers CEO Sema Gornall and FGM Survivor and Activist Mam Lisa Camara

• Rebel Justice - The View Magazine • Episode 92

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In this powerful first episode of a two-part series, Rebel Justice speaks with Sema Gornall, CEO of The Vavengers, and Mam Lisa Camara, a Gambian women’s rights activist and survivor of female genital mutilation (FGM).

The Vavengers are a survivor-led organisation using advocacy, art, and community mobilisation to end FGM and gender-based violence. Sema shares the organisation’s origins, the challenges survivors face in the UK, and how grassroots activism is shaping policy and awareness across communities.

Lisa brings insight from her decades of advocacy in The Gambia, working to challenge religious and cultural misconceptions and empower young women to use their voices through community education and empowerment-based self-defence.

Together, they explore the global scale of FGM, the intersection of culture, gender, and justice, and what survivor-centred change truly looks like.

Next week, in part two, the discussion continues with Max Hill KC, as we look at the legal frameworks, international advocacy and the UN debut of the worlds first global dataset on FGM.

Useful Links

https://thevavengers.co.uk/global-landscape-report

https://awra-group.org/en/

https://www.dahliaproject.org/

Credits

Guests: Sema Gornall & Mam Lisa Camara

Producers: Charlotte Janes & Nico Rivosecchi

Soundtrack: Particles (Revo Main Version) by [Coma-Media] 


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Host:

You're listening to Rebel Justice, the podcast from The View magazine. When we think about justice, we think about it as an abstract, something that happens to someone else, somewhere else. But justice and the law regulate every aspect of our interactions with each other, with organizations, and with the government. We never think about it until it impacts our lives or those of someone closed. Our guests are women with lived experience of the justice system, whether as victims or women who have committed crimes, people at the forefront of civic action, who put their lives on the line to demand a better world. We ask them to share their insight into how we might repair a broken and harmful system with humanity and dignity. We also speak with people who are in the heart of the justice system, creating important change. Judges, barristers, human rights campaigners, mental health advocates, artists and healers. Today's episode is part one of a two-part series featuring the Vavengers. The Vavengers are a dynamic organization working at the forefront of advocacy for survivors of female genital mutilation and gender-based violence. We'll be speaking with the CEO, Sema Gornall. Under Sema's leadership, they've been instrumental in shaping policy and amplifying survivors' voices, whilst also driving education and prevention programs across communities often left unheard. Sema brings a wealth of experience, years of grassroots organizing, collaboration with international NGOs, and a deep commitment to restorative justice and healing for survivors of FGM. In today's episode, we'll explore her journey as a leader, the work of the Revengers, and the complex, urgent challenge of ending FGM, including the cultural barriers, legal frameworks, and the path towards survivor-centred change. We are also joined by Mam Lisa Camara. Lisa is a Gambian women and children's rights activist with over 20 years of experience working with youth and women, starting at a tender age with the Gambia Red Cross Society. Lisa has mastered the art of both community-led and national and international advocacy and development work. Her work has contributed to transforming so many lives in the communities she serves, which led her to her current national duty role, serving as the female representative and vice chairperson of the Gambia National Youth Council. Lisa has devoted decades to community healing, advocacy, and education. Drawing on her lived experience, her work bridges tradition and transformation, helping communities move from harmful practices towards understanding, respect, and human rights. Female genital mutilation, also known as FGM, is a global human rights issue. It refers to procedures that intentionally alter or injure the female genital organs for non-medical reasons and is internationally recognized as a violation of the rights of women and girls. According to the World Health Organization and UNICEF, more than 200 million girls and women alive today have undergone FGM in around 30 countries across Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. It also affects diaspora communities worldwide, including in Europe and North America. The practice is deeply rooted in culture, religious and social traditions, often tied to ideas of purity, modesty, and marriageability, but it has no health benefits and can cause lifelong physical and psychological harm. FGM is most often carried out on children between infancy and age 15, making it a severe form of child abuse. Global efforts focus on prevention, survivor support, legal protection, and community-led education to end the practice in a way that is respectful, sustainable, and centred on the voices of survivors.

Sema:

Hi, I'm Sema Gornall. I'm the Chief Executive Officer of The Vavengers.

Host:

Welcome and thank you for joining us today. Sema, for listeners who may not be familiar, what does the Vavengers do and why was it created?

Sema:

So the Vavengers were founded by a group of women who were actually very angry at the time because female genital mutilation wasn't being talked about. At the time, people were like, what is this? Is it FMG? And they didn't even know what FGM stood for. And there wasn't a great deal of public awareness back in 2014. And around that time, actually, we were like an unofficial group of women, but it wasn't formed as the Vavengers. At the time, there were a few documentaries coming out by our founding members and co-founders, one of them by Dr. Leyla Hussein. She was the presenter of a Channel 4 documentary called The Cruel Cut, where she walked around the government buildings and interviewed Keir Starmer, who was at the CPS at the time, Theresa May and other public figures, and kind of did a deep dive on FGM. And with that came great visibility. And at the time they said, Do you know what? Maybe we need to form a group called Vagina Avengers or Vulva Avengers. And it was Maybell was going to film college and you know, FGM, and then met Hoda Ali, who's an FGM survivor and is a sexual health nurse, and you know, she's a global advocate on this issue. And when they got together, more and more women got together, and then in the end, the Avengers was born. Come 2019, I think they were formed a charity at that point because they were raising too much money as an unregistered group of people, and it got so much attention because of the great advocacy piece. For example, they put up the first banner in the European Union area on FGM because no FGM billboard was put up nowhere, not in the UK or in European Union. They raised awareness through creative arts and filmmaking and music, and they brought politicians, members of the public, different audiences together to talk about FGM. And I would I guess I would say today, still that's the soul of the Avengers. We like to bring everybody together on a journey because we actually think any FGM shouldn't be on survivors and those at risk. It's so unfair when you're facing all those, you know, discrimination, because FGM is often the beginning of a lifetime oppression. It's never just the FGM. FGM survivors tend to survive all sorts of other issues, you know, social inclusion and sometimes economic disadvantage, often poverty, you know, things like that, and other forms of gender-based violence. So what Revengers does is bring other people, and I would say mobilize power. We're really good at that.

Host:

Thank you. And for listeners who may not be familiar, could you explain what female genital mutilation is and the different forms it can take, and then also why it happens?

Sema:

Female genital mutilation is removal of total or partial removal of the female genitalia. And it has different types like type 1, type 2, type 3, type 4. Also things like you know, tattooing, burning, or you know, ashing, any sort of abuse that you can do to a female genitalia, it is called FGM. And basically, I think the reason why it happens is it's a male-led violence, and it happens because of sexism in our global society, because men still demand this. That's why women are kind of accessories to the crime that mothers feel like they have that pressure to do it because the society demands it. Because if the girl, child, or woman hasn't been cut, then she's not included in many things, and you know, that's the reason. But obviously, we know you know that can't be a reason to abuse anyone. It shouldn't happen in the first place. And it's not even comparable. Often we hear questions like, you know, under the podcast channels, is it like male circumcision? No, like it wouldn't even be the comparable at all. Not that I support that, but you know, the comparison would be actually removing the um half the penis of a boy and also the testicles, the damage that it would do. So it's an incredibly damaging act of violence. And for so long it has been dressed as people's culture or religion. But if it was people's culture or religion, it wouldn't happen across the globe, right? It happens everywhere. It happens in Russia, it happens in Gambia, it happens in Turkey, it happens in the UK, it happens in France, it happens in Canada. It's so widespread, and there are 230 million women and girls alive today who are survivors of FGM. But we also know that number could be misleading because we don't have a global surveying system on women like we have on breast cancer or cervical cancer, which Max will come in in a minute.

Host:

Today we're also joined by Lisa Camara. Lisa, could you share your journey and what has driven your lifelong commitment to women and children's rights?

Lisa:

Um, good morning, everybody. My name is uh Lisa Camara. Um, I'm based in the Gambia. I am uh a survivor of female genital mutilation and a founding member of the African Women's Rights Advocates. I've been working on children and women issues for the past 15 years. Um, but uh FGM to be specific about 10 years ago, uh, as a result of my personal experience um as well and as a survivor of FGM. So basically, it's just uh more of mobilization, advocacy, um, and community outreach. Uh, most of my work is related to working with young women in um different communities in the Gambia, trying to raise their voices for in order for them to be able to speak for themselves. Um, we live in uh in a very conservative community. Uh, as you know, Gambia is predominantly a religious country, um, which makes it sometimes very difficult for people to speak out about their experiences. Although we have a few of us, you know, that are out there outspoken, but a majority of the Gambian women or young women are unable to speak up for themselves. And uh the culture of silence has impacted or affected us in such a way that the same women that are affected by female genital mutilation and gender-based violence in general support the practice. Um, we've had surveys and researchers in the Gambia um from various entities where women uh you know have clearly highlighted that they feel that you know if they're beaten by their husbands or if they're treated a certain way by their husbands is a sign of love. And if they've not been beaten or treated a certain way by their husbands, it means the husband has lost interest in them. So this is the kind of society we live in. And in my work, it's trying to empower young women and see how this we can bring out those stories at community level in the best possible way, but then also keeping them safe as well.

Host:

You mentioned your work and advocacy for women. Through Beyond Advocacy, you introduced empowerment-based self-defense in the Gambia. Could you walk us through how this initiative works and why it was needed for women and girls?

Lisa:

Yes, I was trained by um Global ESD, uh, which is an international global uh platform or entity that trains um women on self-defense. So I am a certified uh instructor um of self-defense. What we do is we train young people or women on uh one being able to use their voices in the right way at the right time, two, being able to identify red flags and how to get help. Um, three, it's also how do you get to defend yourself when the need arises. So we teach you so many other steps before it gets to the stage of violence or you're able to physically fight. There's a lot of processes. So these are some of the things that we teach women. Um, we have different classes or different programs for teenagers and older women, uh, depending on the age range and the need uh as well. So it's more of using their voices, being able to use it at the right time, knowing where to get help from, um, identifying red flags, and the final one is being able to physically fight um to get away.

Host:

So, whilst having conversations about FGM in communities where it's still practiced, what conversations have been hardest and what shifts are you beginning to see?

Lisa:

So basically, the hardest part of talking about FGM is the involvement of religion. Like I said, uh Gambia is predominantly a religious country, and the FGM is presumed or by a lot of Gambians that it's uh a religious obligation, um, Islam to be specific and uh being a Muslim as well, coming from a practicing community that is highly religious, it's kind of difficult to have these conversations. Um we've been uh harassed by religious leaders from our own communities and other communities as well. Um, this has been very difficult, and it is still difficult. It's still a difficult conversation to have when we talk about religion as a whole. Um, I don't think much has been achieved when it comes to working with religious leaders in the Gambia, though a lot of organizations and activists have made attempts, have had different various dialogues at national level with the Supreme Islamic Council even involved, um inviting international Islamic scholars in the country as well. But not a lot of strides have been made, uh honestly, when it comes to the religious part, which has been a major hindrance in the advocacy against FGM in the Gambia over the years.

Host:

And Se ma, based on what Lisa said about how FGM is often hidden or misunderstood, what are the biggest misconceptions that you've encountered whilst raising awareness?

Sema:

I think it so we the Vavengers we work uh with directly with communities, with the diaspora community in the UK. So this is why Mam Lisa being in this conversation was important because you know her context is um in the Gambia on the ground. Whereas here we work with the um the diaspora community. So here I think the bigger pushback we get actually is from officials like the frontline policing. They are widely uninformed about this issue. We have support hubs where women can pop up once a month across Greater London, and we run survivor-led sessions. When we do these sessions by a survivor who's been through FGM, and you know, you can clearly see the pain that it caused to her, and she's also expressing the pain because she feels she's safe to express the pain. And a lot of the women here, I guess, and the girl girls, it's I guess it's safer for them to, you know, receive that message here in London, you know, because there's not much, I guess, persecution immediately from the wider country, you know. So I think when we do workshops, I would say with diaspora community here, the struggle is not with the women and girls, because the minute we have a woman who shares her story, often, you know, it will be one of our ambassadors who's doing something localized, grassroots, you know, running a shop in Southwark, or running a big charity in, you know, Walton Forest, or running a help center in Essex. So they will come and run and say, this has happened to me, and I don't want that to define me. So this is what I've done. I left that life behind, and I'm not gonna cut my children. My girl children will be safe if they have it. And that message stands loud and clear. And what we see often with women is, you know, especially older generations, because we have a very respectful um relationship with our community because we are survivor-led. For example, we won't have any men at our hubs. That's number one, you know, safety rule. We have women, and it's like sister-to-sister conversation where the woman shares her story, and then after that we have a medical professional coming and, you know, not just talking about FGM, but she talks about overall women's health. So the way we frame it to women is your breasts are important, the breast cancer is important, awareness about that is important. You know, your skin, your hair, your nails, your organs, everything is important. This is one of your you know, essential organs. Your children's rights matter, and you know, your health, physical health and mental well-being is so important to us, and these are the things that we can offer to you. So you always have uh an FGM specialist midwife. I mean, Huda Mohammed, shout out anyone if anyone wants to look up her work. She's a wonderful midwife, comes to the majority of our hubs and talks to our women. And often our aunties, older women, will come and say, Do you not think I know this is wrong? Do you not know, like, do you not know how many miscarriages I've had because of FGM? I weave my pants because of this since I'm 11, you know, etc. They know the pain. But for me to be able to say no and leave this behind, I need a good job where I can feed my children. I need housing. Last year, the last 12 months, I would say the number one request that we um received from our community in order to abandon FGM and you know, child marriage and other issues was housing. You know, we received, I think, over 200 housing requests. And we mobilized lawyers, work with law firms to assign cases, because there are law firms who will do caseload pro bono free of charge. We link them with our women, and then you know, they write a letter. Often it's a whole different all game, you know, when you have a lawyer defending your rights. And then, you know, they also need help with, you know, immigration paperwork. It's incredibly complex for migrant communities to navigate the paperwork, but also sometimes it is attached to, you know, you have to pay a lot of money to get your visa renewed, even and for your children as well, you know, you have to pay for them. People think, you know, being a migrant in the UK, you come here and it's all free and you you get on a benefit system, which is a really like that's not what we see on the ground. In reality, that's not happening. They want to work, you know, women want to have a good job, they can, you know, safeguard their children. I guess what we do through our hubs is give them the autonomy through referrals to say, yes, this is sustainable for you to leave abuse behind now. So that you can protect your children, you have that power. And what we will do is we'll link you with the power we are connected to. So I guess with the communities, again, overall, I don't think we have struggled at our hubs. Of course, there was one or two instances, you know, every few months where somebody was like, No, I strongly believe in it. This is the way to go. And we're like, all right then, you know, that's not what your children and your sisters are saying, and you will get in trouble. And we won't, you know, we won't protect you if that happens. But, you know, that happens very, very rarely. Majority of the women do not want to do this to their children. And it's a very much male-led, male-driven crime. This is why we get so angry when women get in trouble in the end, because they don't want to do it. They're kind of cornered to do it. Um, in terms of frontline, I mean, with the policing officers or social care or, you know, any frontline um professionals, I think there's not much useful training out there that is like blanket and nationwide. You know, if you're a curious person who has professional curiosity, of course you can go on Google and there's all sorts of materials there that you can educate yourself with, but not everybody will have the time or capacity to do that, or they won't even know where to start. So I do think we need a government-wide training, not just on FGM, but on all four forms of gender-based violence and how intersectional and interlinked they are as well. So when people see something, they can build a big picture and say, all right, I know exactly how to support you. So I think that's what we are missing in the UK, I would say.

Host:

Thank you. And you mentioned a lack of infrastructure in the policing system, but perhaps are there some healthcare gaps or discriminatory practices survivors faced, even in wealthy countries, that most people would be shocked to hear about?

Sema:

Yeah, I mean, in the UK, the healthcare is not great for FGM survivors. I would say if you're a survivor, this is not one of the good places to be in. Um, we have FGM specialist clinics across the country. So just so you know, anyone listening, they need to know that. But what they can do is, you know, basic support like the infibulation if you've been subjected to type 3 FGM and basic, you know, uh support. What they can't give you is they can't actually give you the support through reconstructive surgery if you need that. Again, not all survivors need that, but there are so many we've we've welcomed thousands of women who came to our hubs through the years who've all desperately needed the surgery. And it wasn't, oh, because I just want to, you know, have the surgery. No. The reasons were I want to feel whole again, it will help my mental health, but also I'm in physical pain. So some women were even like, you know, I had relatives who had car accidents and they had some other parts of their bodies damaged, and they went to hospital and it was all fixed, their faces all fingers. Why is it that my genitalia will not be fixed? I'm in constant pain. And that surgery doesn't reverse the act of FGM. Nothing can actually fix the damage 100%. But what you can do is give a better quality of life to that woman so that she can actually go about her day-to-day tasks without being in constant pain because there's so many women who are actively tearing, leading, or you know, we've had so many women who had incontinence for like over 20 years. You can't live with incontinence for even two days. It's very uncomfortable if anybody had that issue post-surgery or anything. It's a terrible experience, you know. Imagine having to live with that for like two decades, and you have to, you're expected to work, clean your house, you know, look after your family and you know, look after yourself. It's quite unfair. So I think that's what we are missing in the healthcare system, but also the specialist psychosexual and trauma-informed mental health care. I know these are like buzzwords that we hear everywhere, but it stands there for something. When we, through our hubs, obviously we can only reach certain amount of women, we can't cover everybody because we're a charity. We have psychotherapists who will donate their times. And, you know, when we see women receiving that support, they become great advocates, not just for themselves. They know how to stand up for themselves, they will stand up for their children, they will have greater strength, but also they will reckon with their childhood and what happened to them. I think it's so important that we give that healing space to the women because the majority of the women who come to our hubs, they this is the first time they've ever talked about FGM. When we did a survey in 2023, 90% of the women who were survivors of FGM said they have been through three to six forms of gender-based violence. So they've never talked about FGM. Because in the long run, FGM was one of the many things that have happened to them and it's happened. They didn't think it as a constant, ongoing thing, if that makes sense. So I think giving that mental health space is also really important.

Host:

In next week's episode, we'll hear again from Sema and Lisa, as well as Max Hill from King and Spalding. The Vavengers and King and Spalding have partnered to create the first global data set on FGM. We'll learn all about this crucial work, the legal implications of FGM, and the team's journey to the 80th Assembly of the United Nations, where they'll be launching their report. You've been listening to Rebel Justice. If you'd like to support our work and receive four digital editions and one print issue a year, subscribe to the View for just £20. Make sure to follow us on our social media. We're on Instagram at the _view_ magazines. And you can also find us on LinkedIn, X, and TikTok. If you'd like to reach out to us directly, you can email inquiries to us at press@theview magazine.org. Please share this story.