Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
What is justice? Who does it serve? Why should you care?
When we think about justice, we think about it as an abstract, something that happens to someone else, somewhere else. Bad people. But justice and the law regulate every aspect of our interactions with each other, with organisations, with the government.
We never think about it until it impacts our lives, or that of someone close.
News, views and trues from The View Magazine, a social justice and campaigning platform for the rights of women in the justice system.
Our guests are women with lived experience of the justice system whether as victims or women who have committed crimes; people at the forefront of civic action who put their lives on the line to demand a better world such as maligned climate justice campaigners.
We ask them to share their insight into how we might repair a broken and harmful system, with humanity and dignity.
We also speak with people who are in the heart of of the justice system creating important change, climate activists, judges, barristers, human rights campaigners, mental health advocates, artists and healers.
The View believes that we can rebuild lives with hope, and successfully reintegrate people who have caused harm or been harmed, through the restoring nature of art and creativity, open dialogue and - love.
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
E. 71 Theatre Behind Bars: How Synergy Theatre Project transforms lives
Esther Baker is the Creative Director of Synergy Theatre Project, an organisation that uses theatre to transform the lives of prisoners and ex-prisoners across the criminal justice system. Through productions in and out of prison, training programmes, and creative projects, Synergy amplifies the voices of marginalised people in the justice system, while creating pathways to rehabilitation.
In this episode, we talk about Synergy’s work across prisons and communities and the power of theatre and creativity to change lives. We also discuss their new short film Cancer Cells, which shines a light on the challenges people with a cancer diagnosis face in prison. It’s a subject that’s deeply important to The View Magazine, and one we’re proud to spotlight.
To learn more about Synergy Theatre Project, watch "Cancer Cells," or attend their upcoming production at Southwark Playhouse, check out the links below.
- Explore the Synergy Theatre Project website
- Watch the "Cancer Cells" film
- Follow Synergy Theatre Project on Instagram and X
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Welcome to Rebel Justice, a podcast by the View magazine, a platform by and for women in the justice system.
Rebel Justice Host:In this episode, we're joined by Esther Baker, the creative director of the Synergy Theatre Project, an organisation that uses theatre and film to amplify the voices of people that have been affected by the criminal justice system. Esther and her team work mainly with prisoners and ex-prisoners because they know that lived experience brings out this authenticity that you just can't teach, and because they're really passionate about creating opportunities for people once they come out of prison. When I first discovered their work, I was so impressed not only by their mission, but the work they do is really great, and you can watch some of it on their website. In this conversation, we talk about Synergy's work across prisons and communities, we talk about the power of creativity, and we also spend some time talking about their new short film, cancer Cells, which shines a light on the challenges that people with a cancer diagnosis face in prisons. It's a subject that's deeply important to us at the View Magazine and one that we're proud to spotlight. I hope you enjoy the episode. Hi, esther, thanks so much for joining us today on Rebel Justice.
Esther Baker:Hi there.
Rebel Justice Host:You're the creative director of the Synergy Theatre Project, so I just thought it'd be interesting, maybe to start off by asking you to tell us a little bit about the Synergy Theatre Project and also a bit about your story, so how you came across it and how you started working there.
Esther Baker:Okay, cool, yeah. So Synergy works through theatre and film across the criminal justice system and we do like quite a lot of different projects. So we do productions in prisons which the prisoners perform perform in alongside professionals. Then we perform to the prison and public audiences come in as well and to prisoners, families and friends. We do productions in theatres about things relating to criminal justice. We commission professional writers and we also do a lot of work developing writers who've been through the criminal justice system as well and we produce some of their work.
Esther Baker:Then we've got a big training programme, creative arts training programme, which we do courses in prison, so particularly like playwriting and acting, but we do other things as well, like spoken word, and then when people get out of prisons, we've got like a wider range of courses at different levels.
Esther Baker:So we also then do filmmaking, film production, stand-up, comedy and playwriting, acting, etc. And then we've got a big young people's program, working with young people at risk of offending, and we do a show every year about young people in crime and that's performed by a mixture of ex-prisoners and professionals. And then we have ex-prisoners as stage managers and assistant directors and workshop facilitators and then throughout the year we do a lot of creative projects with young people at risk of offending, particularly in pupil referral units, and then we also run our own programs with theatres that young people can come to. And then the other thing we do is we do role play training for criminal justice professionals using ex-prisoner active facilitators who've obviously got the lived experience. So we work with probation, we've worked with lawyers, prison officers, and that creates employment for ex-prisoners but also helps to kind of influence systemic change as well. And then we've made quite a few films as well, so we kind of get involved in other other projects as well Amazing.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, it sounds like you do such like a nice wide range of of different different things. And how did you start working there? Were you there right from the?
Esther Baker:start. I actually yeah, I actually co-founded the company. So that was 25 years ago, still here. Um, I do have a background. I did a degree in dance and drama actually. But when I was doing my degree I did a community theatre module and my mum was a prison visitor and I said I want to do my project in a prison and they said no, you can't. I said I'm going to. So I did my project in prison with a couple of other girls that were on the course.
Esther Baker:I don't know, I could see its impact. And then I got a job teaching in prisons. I learned a lot in those seven years that I was teaching drama in various London prisons. There wasn't so much arts in prisons then and then I sort of became really interested in working with people both sides of the prison wall, because you kind of do all this great work in prison. I started teaching GCC and A level and then I really wanted to work with people when they got out and I got an award for my work, a Butler Trust award in 2000, and then basically launched a company on the back of that and we did our first production on no money. But here we are today with about seven members of staff and impacting about 200 prisoners and ex-prisoners a year. So yeah, it's grown yeah, it's amazing.
Rebel Justice Host:So I took a look at your website and I've just you do a really good job of you know, putting in their testimonies and just giving a sense of the scale, and there is just so much going on, like the amount of training that you've delivered, the amount of you know prisoners that you've reached is massive. I'd love to know that. So, and what's your experience been working with prisoners and ex-prisoners?
Esther Baker:in some ways, the earlier years were more challenging because obviously you've got to learn. I was younger. I think as long as you treat people with respect, they treat you with respect, you know. And also I just think what we do like it has a really powerful impact and we only work with people that want to work with us. So that's quite significant as well. Yeah, I've seen some amazing like stories of people. Obviously I've been doing it a long time and actually a lot of people we work with do need kind of long-term investment and long-term relationship. So it's really great.
Esther Baker:It's definitely easier working as part of a team because you can kind of sound things off against each other and you've got support. I mean, you know, doing the artistic work it's kind of the easy bit in a way. It's all the stuff surrounding it because obviously people that go to prison you know a lot of them have come out of trauma or, you know, haven't had education necessarily or dropped out early. They might have housing issues, might have addiction issues, so you've got all these things surrounding that make it challenging. But I just believe in the power of the arts really to transform. But people, you know it's hard coming out of prison and people have got to give people coming out of prison chances or else they're going to go back. So yeah, I mean I'm still doing it, I guess. So I still believe in it.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, for sure and I mean you mentioned. Obviously people have to be willing. They choose to either be involved or not involved and you know the view magazine is is really buying for women in the criminal justice system. So I wonder if there is a difference between how willing men are to engage with the project versus women. Do you see any difference in how women approach it and get involved?
Esther Baker:no, they are different though men's and women's prisons. I used to say that men think they're going to be brilliant and women think they're going to be rubbish, but I mean I really like working with both. I think the women are really obviously vulnerable. You know there's a lot of mental health issues and you know they're very, they are very vulnerable men. Men, I think, display it differently. I used to think I don't know if it's true, but that women quite often turn their stress in on themselves, whereas men might put it out. So there's more violence in men's prisons, um, but the men are damaged too. They just display it differently. And also, you know, there are some crossovers, like they're really fun and there's a lot of spirit in prisons and there's a lot of creative energy as well. But yeah, it's different, but we work when people come out. One, I mean Clean Breaker, a company, a brilliant company that work with just women, but we mix them and actually that can be really good for the women to have like a really positive experience working alongside other men.
Rebel Justice Host:It can be really, it can be really healthy, you know yeah, for sure, especially if, um, you don't have much experience of working and, like yeah, of being in a really positive environment, collaborating and having that kind of interaction with with the opposite sex.
Esther Baker:Yeah, it sort of creates a like a mad family doing a show, yeah, and then, like you know, because synergy, a lot of people who come to us, they'll do quite a few projects with us and it creates like a mad family doing a show, yeah, and then, like you know, because Synergy, a lot of people who come to us, they'll do quite a few projects with us and it creates like a really good peer support and people build friendships that are, you know, are based on good things. But one thing I would say about working with women is I think it's different because I'm a woman. It kind of feels nearer, almost, you know, yeah, it's feels nearer, almost you know.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, it's quite emotional, it's quite intense. Women's prisons yeah, um, I really wanted to talk to you about Cancer Cells. So this is a film that I think you've recently released and it's something that we're going to be spotlighting in the next issue of our magazine. So would you mind just explaining a little bit about what the film is about and how Synergy Theatre Project came to work on this, on this film?
Esther Baker:Yeah, so we were approached we'd actually done a project with King's College before and we were approached by King's College and the NHS to create a film that reflected the findings of research they'd been doing into cancer in prisons.
Esther Baker:So really, what we did and what film and the arts can do is they humanise it. So we decided to commission a writer who I'd worked with before, who's brilliant, and he basically kind of created a film which captures the frustrations of all the different sort of parties working to try and support prisoners who've got cancer. So you've got the prisoner, you've got a prison officer, you've got the, the nurse outside and you've got the doctor in the prison and and it is very, very difficult for people you know, obviously it's a terrible, like human thing to have cancer, to find out you've got cancer, but in prison obviously there's so many more factors at play and, um, yeah, so we made the film and we used ex-prisoners in it and professionals. We actually filmed in the decommissioned Holloway prison, which was really creepy when we turned the generator off in the dark in Holloway prison so yeah, we.
Esther Baker:Yeah, I think there was some other film companies maybe in another area of the prison, but I mean it's a brilliant location to do it in, but it was weird. So, yeah, we filmed that and we filmed it in Surrey as well, at the hospital and sort of at the uni nearby. But I mean, what we wanted to do was really like capture in a short film the important issues, and I think the film does that really well.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, I totally agree, because I've read the research and I've also watched the film and there are some things that they mention in the research, for example, the issue of privacy. So they say that you know, prison officer has to be present throughout. From you know the consultations to when you're giving samples, that throughout and you can read that and you can think that doesn't sound great.
Rebel Justice Host:But there's something completely different when you actually watch the film and you see a prisoner receiving some really sad, difficult news or having to take really intimate samples and literally just chained to another prison officer and it just adds a whole different dimension it brings up issues of human rights, human dignity, but also what I think the film captures as well is how difficult it is for the prison officers.
Rebel Justice Host:Totally you know, it's really difficult for them yeah, it's so true, you kind of get it from all of the different perspectives and you can realize how challenging it is for everyone involved in the process yeah, and also communication, like one of the problems is obviously it's a massive institution, the prison system, you know.
Esther Baker:But if the communication was better between agencies it would would impact that. You know the prisoners wait. I actually know someone who was diagnosed with cancer after the film came out, but he waited. His symptoms were really clear, um that he was really unwell and he waited for two months before he was taken to hospital. You know cancellations of transport etc. And you're just like that is not okay. If you're in the community, you'd be seen within two weeks and you know.
Rebel Justice Host:I think it just needs to be a priority because it's a human right yeah, exactly, and um, and then in terms of the film then so is it going to be shown in any specific locations? Like, what are you really hoping to be able to achieve with this film and who are you hoping to reach with this film and are you expecting to see sort of any changes?
Esther Baker:well, I know that the um, the, the people who did the research, they've used it already at quite a lot of conferences and also it was shown at an event at the house of laws to sort of justice and health sort of decision makers. So that was really good for it to be shown there and I would really like all prison governors to see it. I'd quite like nhs staff working in prisons to see it as well. I mean, it felt like a really important film to me?
Rebel Justice Host:yeah, it is. It is a really important film and there's a point in the research that that says that for nhs staff, prisons are still a really mysterious place for them and that these two agencies or these two institutions are like really different in terms of like people and culture and everything. Yeah, and so I wonder, like I think that the film does a really good job of kind of demystifying, but I wonder if that was, yeah, if that was kind of intentional part of the film and if that's an intentional part of the synergy theatre project as well, if you're trying to demystify and raise a bit of yeah, what the prison yeah, I think a lot, a lot of our work is about challenging public perception.
Esther Baker:So often the plays that we commission are things people don't necessarily know much about, and we always create dialogue between prisoners and audiences or ex-prisoners and audiences. But the other thing we do and I think could happen more is we do do, like I said, we do, the role play training. I wonder if there could be some training for NHS staff that are going to be working in prisons, and also, like, I just think it's really hard to get any press into prisons and I think it's really important that the public are more aware of what's going on. I just think, yeah, I mean, we are always trying to amplify prisoners' voices, basically, and we do it in a lot of ways, but I think there's other things that could be done as well.
Esther Baker:Obviously, there's a lot of concern about negative media on prisons, but actually there's really important stuff that the public should know about and, you know, I think it's really important that they do. And obviously, cancer is something that affects most people and I think that, like, the public would care about that, because it's bad enough if you're in the community, but if you're isolated in a prison, you've got to find out something like that, chained to an officer. It's's pretty horrendous.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, and on that point, how much did you know about cancer in prisons before you made this film?
Esther Baker:I'd met a couple of prisoners that had cancer and so I knew a little bit about their stories and how difficult it was for them, but I didn't know that much, to be honest. I mean I knew that it's hard to get healthcare appointments. I mean we have an overcrowded prison system, obviously, and unfortunately, when, when it's like that, it means the vulnerable are really overlooked, you know, it's actually can affect people's life expectancy. I mean it's really serious.
Rebel Justice Host:When you read the research and when you started working on the script and with your, with your colleague who you mentioned, was there anything that you found particularly surprising or shocking, or what did you make of the findings?
Esther Baker:of the research. I mean, to be honest, the most shocking thing which is in the film is having to give a sample whilst you're chained to an officer. I mean, it's just like I just think why couldn't they just lock the door, you know, or just have the officer stand near, you know? I found that really shocking. I kind of knew quite a lot of the other stuff about, you know, the difficulties in communication and transport and all the things that frustrate a big system. That's sort of creaking. Yeah, I think that that's the main thing. And then just how awful it is that they find out on their own, with no family members, and all that.
Rebel Justice Host:Yeah, and I think it's those things that are so much more powerful when you see them being played out in a film, versus if you see them sort of on a piece of paper. So you kind of mentioned this at the beginning as well and I guess it's about the power of theatre and the power of creativity and I'd just love it if you could describe what you think the power is of theatre on people in the criminal justice system. I think it does lots of things.
Esther Baker:So you know, when you do a play in a prison, it's really heightened because there's not much else going on. I think it brings people together. I think it helps you to explore the world through different perspectives by inhabiting characters, talking about play, themes etc. It, you know it can really build confidence, themes etc. It, it, you know it can really build confidence. So there's so much talent in prison and people that don't know they've got it. And I, I think the journey that people go on is very powerful. And then performing in front of families and the public and peers, you know people being really proud of themselves. I mean we really push them to really achieve high quality, um, because they're gonna, they're gonna keep that with them. So you kind of want people to achieve as much as they can.
Esther Baker:And then I think a lot of our experts really like kind of doing plays for young people and trying to sort of deter them from making the mistakes they did, um, so I think it just works in lots of ways. But also theater's quite a buzz and you know, criminals like a buzz, but it's like a positive one, it's like a natural high and it's a reward for hard work. Yeah, I just think it works in a lot of ways.
Rebel Justice Host:Basically, yeah, it's like the adrenaline you feel when you're about to go on stage. Yeah, and excitement, yeah, totally yeah. And yeah, you mentioned about the kind of sense of purpose and on your website you have these amazing sort of member stories where we can just see and hear from some of the members and you know some of the ex-prisoners who have performed and some of the ex-prisoners who now have jobs, full time jobs with Synergy, and what a lot of them say is about, yeah, the fact that kind of gave them such a deep sense of like meaning and purpose and focus. And you know there are stories about how you know some left and came and came back and you know Synergy was kind of a consistent feature in their life. Obviously, there are probably so many stories, but is there any one story or moment or person that stands out for you where you really saw their life shift through theatre and through their engagement with Synergy?
Esther Baker:It's quite a few. I mean, probably the most recent one is Daniela. So so we met her in Downview Prison. She was getting in trouble quite a bit in the prison. She joined a production that we did I wasn't actually directing and she was extreme. She's extremely creative, extremely talented and she did a great job on the show. Really like her behavior change, you know, and I just thought I could help her. You know, she's got spirit as well and she's lovely, you know. And then she was coming up for release and actually I moved the production our last production so that she could join it, and she literally came out of prison straight into rehearsals and she's just done a seven-week project with us and the impact on her, I think, was quite profound. She said to me you know that A lot of people don't believe in you so you don't bother sort of stepping up for them. But when people believe in you, you know, you step up and she's an absolutely brilliant actor. She was fantastic in the Q&As with the young people. I mean it's really early days for her. You know, we're putting her on another project to work with some young people in a couple of weeks' time.
Esther Baker:She's got a lot of potential though a lot of potential. I mean, there's someone like Valentine. So I met Valentine in 2011 in Brixton Prison on his way to the gym and he joined our show we were doing Glen Gary, glen Ross, and then, when he came out of prison, he got involved in a young people's project. He was very talented and an agent picked him up and then gradually he kind of got more and more work and he sort of did. He's worked at the National Theatre, the Royal Court Theatre. He's worked on ITV. He's worked at the National Theatre, the Royal Court Theatre. He's worked on ITV, done a recently done a film with Liam Neeson and in 2020 he got best act, best actor, at the Black British Theatre Awards. So that was a great moment. You know there's lots of different stories. Some of the successes aren't so kind of profily, but it's just people getting on with their lives, people not doing crime anymore, people getting their kids back. You know, people coming off antidepressants. There's all sorts of different success stories. You know everyone's different yeah, amazing.
Rebel Justice Host:Um, well, those are. Those are pretty much all my questions. I mean, I wonder, is there anything that you want to share?
Esther Baker:yeah, I'd love to tell you about our next play, actually so we are doing a play in September about aging in prison. So it's about a prisoner who's getting dementia and his relationship with a prison officer. It's an absolutely amazing play. It's going to be on at Southwark Playhouse in October, so do come and see it everyone. It is completely brilliant, You're going to love it and it's really important again, something people don't know about.
Rebel Justice Host:That sounds amazing. So people can just buy tickets and can come and they will be able to.
Esther Baker:It's not on sale yet, but yeah, I mean, if people follow us on our socials, then they'll find out about what's going on.
Rebel Justice Host:Amazing, and is this one that you have commissioned to write?
Esther Baker:Funnily enough, it's actually written by the guy that wrote the Cancer Cells film.
Rebel Justice Host:Is it the guy that wrote the cancer cells film? Is it?
Esther Baker:Okay. Yeah, he actually approached us with the idea quite a while ago. He'd read an article, but he's done quite a lot of teaching in prisons and they did some research in prisons where there's older people. They went to an end of life suite in prison, you know, and it's powerful stuff, okay.
Rebel Justice Host:Well yeah, we'll definitely encourage people to go to that, and we can always share the details of your socials as well. Brilliant, amazing, well, thanks so much for your time, Esther.
Rebel Justice Host:It's been really good to chat to you and hear more about the really amazing work that you're doing. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to Rebel Justice, a podcast by the View magazine. A huge thanks to Esther for sharing her insights and stories. If you'd like to watch Cancer Cells or read more about Synergy's work or attend their upcoming production at Southwark Playhouse in October, head to the podcast description for all of the links. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow Rebel Justice on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And finally, thank you for listening.