Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice

27.12.2023 Art, Advocacy, and Authenticity: Anna Delvey's Immigrant Journey Through the Justice System

• Rebel Justice - The View Magazine

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How does one survive the brutality of incarceration and the deprivations of prison life? What if that person is an immigrant caught in an unresponsive justice system? Today, we pull back the curtain on these harsh realities, journeying through the narrative of an artist who found salvation in creativity amidst the bleak confines of prison life. 

The emotional toll of dependency and loss of control can be crushing, but our guest artist turned adversity into inspiration, forging a path of resilience with limited resources. Through their story, we bear witness to the transformative power of art, a lifeline that transcends the physical confines of a cell. We'll journey with them as they navigate the limitations and opportunities that come with their newfound talent, offering insights into their creative process both within and beyond prison walls.

As we round off this poignant discourse, we delve into the therapeutic value of art and the importance of community support in healing trauma. Our guest shares insights on the courage to believe in oneself, the importance of authenticity, and the power of reclaiming one's narrative. We'll also discuss the urgency of prison reform, the rights of incarcerated women, and the importance of advocacy, laying bare the role of a supportive community in effecting change. Join us in unearthing these hidden truths, as we shine a light on the strength of the human spirit in the face of adversity and the profound impact of art on the soul.

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Farah Damji:

Being in prison isn't only a deprivation of your liberty. It's the calculated deprivation of everything that defines you your family, your friends, your clothes, your work. Everything is taken away, everything that makes you who you are in the world. You can only wear prison grays and a thousand shades of grey that blend into the grey walls and the grey prison offices and the grey skies. The trauma and daily violence just become part of everything normal. You have to find a way out, trying to elevate you above the barbed wire, fencing and endless dirty corridors of pain and torment.

Farah Damji:

For some, this is their art. For me, it was my painting. Drawing and painting materials were allowed to be sent into me bizarrely, in spite of endless security measures put in place by a paranoid prison system, and I developed a skill that I'd neglected since I'd left school. And as art is interesting, there's a shadow of Egan Sheila's erotic poses draped over her naïve fashion. Illustrations with labels Gucci, chanel, balenciaga written. Besides items of clothing, there are titles and signatures written across them. Play with me on board and several other inspiring sketches that you'll find in our Autumn Winter 2023 edition of the View. So do look out for it. You can download it on our website and you'll also be able to read this interview online.

Anna Delvey:

We started to talk a little bit about how it felt to be a migrant in America. Did you feel, in your case, let down by the justice system? Did you feel?

Charlotte Webb:

heard, I felt like the criminal justice system was just way more structured than the immigration one, because with immigration you just feel like they don't have any deadlines or like any timelines. Like you have 30 days to file an appeal, but they don't have any deadlines to like issue a decision. It's like you know if they want to take three years, there is no one to tell them that they can't. There's like no law in existence that would like prevent them from doing so. It's like it's just the timelessness of it. It's like you know you can like file all this stuff, but it's like nobody owes you a decision. I think it's just it's universal with immigration system. You know like even if you are applying for something from out of country, it's like you know you can apply for something. That's like will you ever hear back. It's like it's nice that there's an option, but it's like it's no good if you actually never get a response.

Anna Delvey:

Yes, you're just left sort of living this life in limbo, so it's hard to make any plans or kind of look to the future, isn't it?

Charlotte Webb:

Absolutely. Yeah, that was the hardest thing. You know like always being reliant on people to like do things for you. Because you know like if you want a book, in jail it's like there's no way for you to get one other than like asking like your parents or your friends or whatever like to send one for you. And that's like goes for everything. Like somebody needs to go money in your book, somebody needs to like do XYZ for you. It just like you're always relying on people to do stuff for you without being able to reciprocate. You know, and it's like always like this take, take, take relationship, I don't know. I mean, it's like it doesn't feel good. I just like always oh well, I'm in jail, just do this for me, you know.

Anna Delvey:

Yeah, it forces you to be very vulnerable and I imagine you're someone who likes to be in control, so it's hard to be vulnerable and relying on people and you know, as we touched on before, it's not the most brilliant people or the most helpful people that end up in those systems and even if they do at the beginning, you know that gets kind of beaten out of them. I want to ask you about your art, which is so fantastic and so beautiful. Did you always draw?

Charlotte Webb:

Pretty much, I mean, I guess. Yes, it was not constant. I did it like in spurts. I was drawing as a kid. Obviously we had like art classes in school and a second like a college prep, and then I went to person's in Paris, I attended the fashion illustration classes and from then like, kind of like abandoned that a little bit. But you still like learn to like operate like the concepts of, like the shape and the light and like you know shading, how to like how things look on flat surfaces. You know.

Anna Delvey:

Yeah, there's a lot of fashion illustration influence in your drawings and tell us about how you had to get art materials smuggled in because you weren't even allowed to have art materials. That's shocking. Even in English prisons we can have art materials and they're pretty barbaric.

Charlotte Webb:

I'd say like the prison is actually more permissive than a jail in New York. So it's like in prison you can get all kinds of stuff. Like you can get erasers, all kinds of like colors, as long as, like they don't contain any alcohol, you can get pretty much anything. Well, in jail it's like very restrictive. I don't know for whatever reason, because the people who are there then they have not been convicted of a crime yet. So I don't know. It's really interesting actually to like observe that. But it's like I could not get paper larger than nine by 12. So I mean, it's like what kind of danger could possibly like larger paper could have posed?

Anna Delvey:

you know, it's like why you might do a crystal and wrap yourself in it and then post yourself or something. I guess yeah.

Charlotte Webb:

That's probably the main concern. Yeah, I could not have watercolors. It's like oh well, your makeup did not make it in. I'm like what makeup.

Anna Delvey:

That's fantastic. Love that. So you could have painted yourself as a parrot or something. So how did you get the watercolors in?

Charlotte Webb:

I did not. I never had any. I think that I've done it with pencil. The pens that we have, they are like the security pens. They're like flexible, so you can stab anybody for them.

Anna Delvey:

Yeah, lovely. Tell me about the over the eyes. When you draw yourself, you draw sort of a black stripe across your eyes. What does that represent?

Charlotte Webb:

It's the play on like you know when you have, like the crime shows and like they're trying to hide your identity. Oh yes, kind of like assumes that you like the criminal or something or like. So it's kind of like a play on that a little bit.

Anna Delvey:

I love that. They look like very glamorous sunglasses. Actually, they look great. How is your art doing? I know you've got limited edition run of prints and some originals for sale now. How are they doing? How are they selling Great?

Charlotte Webb:

I mean, yeah, it's been getting like a ton of publicity. I am actually doing like a big thing tomorrow where, like an artist is coming over and she's like giving me a masterclass in acrylics and we're like filming us doing that. But yeah, so I like I was able to get all kinds of stuff. I have like all kinds of supplies, all kinds of canvases, so I'm very excited to be able to experiment with those new like tools that I have at my disposal.

Anna Delvey:

Yeah, it's exciting. I love getting new art materials. It's almost. I used to buy handbags and Chanel and now I just am obsessed with brushes and paints. It's fantastic. Much better obsession, much cheaper. Tell us about what you're working on now. What sort of art are you? What's your next project? What's your next art piece going to be?

Charlotte Webb:

I'm looking to implement some like color and just like using different tools and different surfaces. So, like, as I said, I was able to like get all this canvases as opposed to like watercolor paper that I've been using while in jail and I'm like working with like squares and round surfaces and the wood panels. So I have some of those and I just have like, yeah, watercolors that I wasn't able to have while I was in jail, and acrylics and all kinds of like gold, silver paint, so I can have like pretty much anything I want. Whatever like it's going to get into my doors. It's exciting. It's like you know, when you can just like, when you get, when you go from nothing to like everything, it's kind of like oh my gosh, what I'm going to do. So it's like I'm just going to experiment, I guess, and see what's going to fit.

Anna Delvey:

That's fantastic. That's such a great opportunity. It's brilliant. So you're day, I know you have a house or a situation, but you're not restricted what you can do, except for social media you have. You have well limited freedom, but at least you're out, you're in your house. What does that feel like? Are you allowed to go out for a walk? Are you allowed to get any fresh air? Can you go to the gym?

Charlotte Webb:

Well, I'm allowed to move within my building and that's like if my building had a gym or a pool, I'd be able to go there. So I'm like I'm probably I'm looking to move somewhere bigger. But now it's like it's really funny, because we just asked the judge for modification and he denied that. So it's like I can leave, like if I feel like I'm dying, but I'm pretty much going to the house. I would be a. No, oh God, it's not good. In order to like go see doctor, I need to have some serious symptoms for me to justify that. I mean, it's interesting.

Anna Delvey:

For me. You have such a great platform. Now you know you've come out, you've done your time, you've paid your dues, you've made restitution. You know quite a lot of restitution. What are your thoughts about using your platform to make the justice system better? Because, as I said before, I've read some of your writing about the flaws in the justice system when it comes to women, but would you like to use your platform to help make it better for women who come off trust, and how would you like to do that?

Charlotte Webb:

Yes, absolutely so. Actually, like I am in touch with like multiple of like criminal justice and immigration reform organizations that like based in New York and Washington, and that would be in the context of my dinners. So it's like ideally, what I would like to achieve with it is basically to bring the attention, like what I would with all the celebrities I'm about to have, it's like you know, it's like kind of like to offer them the media impact value and just like to shine the light on the issues that I've personally been through, like I can relate personally to.

Anna Delvey:

And so how would you do that, did you say with your dinners?

Charlotte Webb:

no-transcript. That's right. So it's like I mean, there's so many ways to do that. So it's like I'm just trying to connect with people who are experienced in that field.

Anna Delvey:

Good because you have an important message and you've done your time and your voice matters and you've gone through experiences that most people won't have and you have a platform, so you know, use it. It's brilliant that you want to do that. Finally, I wanted to ask you what would be better alternatives to prison for women. There's a really interesting intersection that we've covered slightly about migrant women well, women and the way that we're treated by the justice system. What do you think would be better to help these women who are let down by the services meant to assist them?

Charlotte Webb:

I mean for immigration or for criminal, because it's just like so different, because I feel like it's so unjustified that people with immigration offenses would end up being subjected to the same conditions and somebody permitted a time because it ended up pretty much criminalizing immigration.

Charlotte Webb:

Because, you know, just because you like done something wrong for immigration purposes, I would feel like it should be like if somebody chooses like to take away all your freedom and like like all the choices that you can possibly make for yourself, they would need to provide like support, as in terms of like some kind of like a counseling, somebody who would sit you down and say it's like, oh well, why did you do what you've done? It's like you know, how can we prevent that from happening? That did not happen to me personally. It's like you know, just take away everything from you like to make you comply with like this arbitrary program that may or may not be good for everybody. Everybody just gets the same treatment. It's no matter what you've done. It's like if you killed I don't know your boyfriend or whatever like, or if you like told like and I'm off cocaine, I don't know Like, everybody just gets the same treatment, and that should not be the case.

Anna Delvey:

So you got no mental health support while you were in prison or in jail.

Charlotte Webb:

No, I mean all they offer you would be like medication.

Anna Delvey:

Oh gosh, I have a last question for you, which is there's been so much written about you and so much obviously portrayed about you in the papers, netflix obviously everywhere, everywhere you look, there's an Adelphi story. How do you feel about that and do you feel that you own your own story now?

Charlotte Webb:

This is what I'm attempting to achieve, that now I don't feel like that won my story, because I feel like the Netflix narrative was like kind of bigotis and just like took over everything. So Even reasonable people keep thinking like this is actually me and this is the real version of me, which is not the truth. Yeah, so I felt like people just take fiction for reality. So I will forever have to like fight against that perception. I mean, I don't know like about forever, but maybe for like an extended period of time, definitely, but you can blame them because that was like the only version of me that was out there.

Anna Delvey:

But did you participate in that Netflix documentary?

Charlotte Webb:

I mean yes and no. The way I was approached with it it was like, well, netflix bought the story from New York magazine and Jessica Pressler, because you know she's the other ones who owned the rights to it. And they were like, well, we are doing it anyways. It's like, if you want to be part of it, like we're going to get you as a consultant. Like no, it's not a big deal. So it's like it was not presented to me. In a way, it's like, oh my gosh, we need you and like, otherwise you won't do anything. So it's like it was like I was always in damage control mode with that whole thing.

Anna Delvey:

That must be incredibly traumatic to have your story and your life story hijacked like that, told through someone who's quite hostile. That that must be very traumatic for you and I hope that you do succeed in reclaiming your own narrative, because I think that's really important and I know for me I paint and I know for me that my art and my writing has really helped me to reclaim who I am and tell my own story. Whatever's written about me or people you know want to write about me, it kind of really helps me. So I hope that I hope that helps you too.

Charlotte Webb:

Thank you. I mean, yeah, definitely, it's like I am. I find like different ways of dealing with what's happening to me. It's like I guess, yes, just like being creative and creating, like drawing and making my art was like one way and outlet, like something, to focus on something I took forward, to a way to like express my feelings and thoughts on things that happened to me. So it was a huge outlet, definitely.

Anna Delvey:

So this next edition of the view, which is the magazine that we publish, is going into women's prisons, detention centers and women's centers all over England. We've got some funding from Lush, which is the handmade cosmetic company. They've given us the funding to print this edition. We would be absolutely delighted if you'd share with us a drawing to to publish in the magazine. So I think it would really would really mean a lot to the women in prison because sometimes, as you know, when we're there sitting inside those four walls with the door slam shut and no light and no air, you really can't see how you're going to, how you're going to get through this, how you're going to get to the end of this.

Anna Delvey:

And sometimes seeing someone like you who's got through it and kind of turned it on its head and is making a success of her life and saying, yeah, this happened to me but I've moved on, it would be such a pleasure to publish one of your drawings. So please think about sending us a drawing for the next edition of the magazine and we'll make sure that you get some print copies as well, because I think your story would really reach some of the women who you know you're trying to reach and that we're reaching as well. Yeah, absolutely. And is there anything, anna, that you would say to your 16 year old self, to your younger self? You know, sometimes we look back. I'm a lot, lot older than you, but sometimes we look back and think, god, if I would have known that when I was 16, my life would be so different. Is there anything that you would like to say to your 16 year old self?

Charlotte Webb:

I mean, it's just like believe in yourself and trust your gut and I know it's like it's fine to make mistakes, that's how you learn, because you know obviously I'm not the first person to be alive to grow up. It's like it just doesn't resonate the same way, like if somebody tells you how things work, as opposed to like when you just find them out the hard way. Just stay true to yourself and yeah.

Anna Delvey:

That's great advice. Is there anything else that you'd like to say to end this podcast, or the people listening? So we have a huge variety of people listening. We have lots of lawyers and judges and policymakers. To end off, what's the last word from Anna Delvy?

Charlotte Webb:

Well, just like kind of always believe in what you and go as I'm like don't really like take advice that you don't, that you don't want to hear. This is like what happened to me, for example. So many people told me that I will, like I will never let me out and I will be deported. And there's just no way that I will be let out in New York and like, look at me now. So it's like the laws are fluid. They change all the time when you just need to find the right lawyer who would just like will want to push your vision through. So that's excellent advice.

Anna Delvey:

That's really brilliant advice, and I just want to add that if there's anything at all that we can do to help you, to amplify, or anything that we can do to help in any way, then we're here.

Anna Delvey:

You're part of our family now, of our rebel justice family, so stay in touch and I'm sure we'll do another one when there's progress on your immigration status and, as I said, if there's anything at all that we can do to help and to amplify, then we are here. Awesome, of course. Anna, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure and good luck, really. Best of luck with your legal proceedings, and I really hope that your art brings you some joy and some peace and that you're actually