Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice

Episode 3: Can Women with Lived Experience Be Part of the Solution? - Part 1

December 09, 2021 Naomi Harlow, Clare Barstow, Rob Welsh, Farah Damji
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
Episode 3: Can Women with Lived Experience Be Part of the Solution? - Part 1
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice +
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The VIEW Magazine CiC 

Presents

Rebel Justice Podcasts : Episode 3: Women with Lived Experience Part 1

Madalena speaks to  model and mental health campaigner Naomi Harlow, activist and former prisoner Clare Barstow, prison law solicitor and expert Rob Welsh - from our sponsors, Instalaw, a leading prison and criminal defence law firm - and former prisoner and one of the founders of The View, Farah Damji.

Today we look at whether women with lived experience can be part of the solution when it comes to effective policy and stopping the cycle of crime and reducing reoffending. 

With thanks to all our panellists and the many people who made Someone’s Daughter possible. The campaign continues, globally, so watch our social media for dates and further announcements.

© The View Magazine 2021

Narrated and Edited by Madalena Alberto 

Produced by The View Magazine 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice Podcast. This podcast is part of our someone's daughter campaign, the campaign to change the way you see justice. This podcast was recorded during photo London in September, 2021. Photo London is an exceptional art and activism project where world famous and acclaimed photographers have taken photographs of women who have been involved in the criminal justice system. Some are survivors, some are lawyers, some are activists, and others are leading women in public life who have taken an interest in all the processes from charging and arrest from incarceration to rehabilitation. Today we look at whether women with lived experience can be part of the solution when it comes to effective policy and stopping the cycle of crime and reducing re-offending. Today's panel includes model and mental health campaigner, Naomi Harlow, activist and former prisoner, Claire Barstow, Prison law solicitor and expert Rob Welsh from our sponsors Insta Law, a leading prison and criminal defense law firm, and former prisoner, and one of the founders of the View, Fara. Dji. Thank you all for coming. Naomi, I will bring you in First, could you tell us about your experience with working with younger women and how lived experience can be used to support them?

Speaker 2:

I've worked for a number of years with, um, children and young people, and I think some of the most, um, understanding and some of the most compassionate, uh, people working with those children and young people are the, are the people who've lived through a similar experience. Um, I think it's, it's a tricky line between using your lived experience to support others and influencing how you view their trauma. So you have to be quite careful. I personally have lived through similar, uh, experiences to a lot of the children that, that I work with, but my trauma is not the same as their trauma. My experience of dealing with trauma is not the same as theirs is going to be. So I think it's a case of being very aware that although your lived experience can, uh, educate and inform your practice, um, that you are also being very conscious of the fact that, that it's, you are not you, you're not healing your own wounds through supporting them. So I've lived, I've worked with children with, with various all kinds of trauma. So poverty, sexual abuse, um, mental abuse, um, peer on peer abuse, county lines, all of this kind of, um, work. Um, and I think that the one thing that, uh, that they all have in common is that if we're not very careful, um, children and young people who've lived through those things come out of them with a feeling of, of worthlessness and a feeling a little bit if of, depending on the support they've received of possibly feeling a little bit like they've been thrown under the bus. Um, that that's kind of their, their script is written and, and that's the end of it. Um, so it's, it's enabling people to work through trauma but also own the trauma, um, and, and not see them completely as victims for their whole life. I think that's really key because we like to, we like to victimize trauma victims because it helps us to see them as people in need. And actually what we need to do is see them as strong people who still are people in need, um, and that can inform how, how we best support them.

Speaker 1:

Rob, how do you feel about your experience as a solicitor within mental health cases you have come across?

Speaker 3:

Just as a bit of background, I work primarily with the male estate, but also with the female prisoner estate. And there are quite a few differences between the two. I would say, um, the female estate is probably slightly better catered two in terms of mental health, but still not anywhere enough. Um, and I think the things which I have identified over the years is that people, um, are not given enough time individually to try and assess the issues which they have been encountering in their life. It's very much one box fits all. And I guess the, the issue when it's ultimately broken down comes, comes down to finances and resources. Um, the prison system would work far better if there were more and more psychologists and people able to aid people who have suffered with trauma rather than trying to pay for the cracks and forget all about that, pretend that that issue is going to go away after they've finished a sentence. And of course, this is why we end up in the male and female estate, where ultimately the cycle isn't broken and, and people back to prison because we've never actually got to the bottom of the issue as to why it happened in the first place. Um, I just keep to keep sending people back to prison and, and think that that's going to resolve the problem. Um, and of course it isn't. So yeah, that's my concise view of, of the position.

Speaker 1:

So do you think it's important to prioritize more alternatives to custody for those who have mental health issues?

Speaker 3:

Very much so. And again, I think this has got to come down to the individual. Um, people have got to be ready to change and in a position to change, but continually putting people in custody, in my view, is simply not the answer. And there needs, needs to be very good one to one work with people at the very first stages of prison. Um, that simply doesn't happen at the moment. People come to prison and, you know, they're interviewed and if they're, you know, not in a critical position, they may get put on the waiting list for mental health services and so forth. Um, and that can often take months in my experience for people to obtain that help. And I mean, while their mental health deteriorates further and further because of the effect of being put in prison as well. So it's a kind of, uh, self fulfilling prophecy. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and ultimately if they don't get the help that they require when they come out of prison, you know, they've been made worse essentially, and they've suffered more and, and the, the, the staying in prison is acted as a traumatic experience for them on top of the trauma which they have already had. So yeah, certainly in, in the majority of cases, unless there is a real imminent risk to the public, alternatives should be explored in, in, in terms of, uh, and over and above prison sentences.

Speaker 1:

Claire, I see you have something to say.

Speaker 4:

Yes. Um, yeah, my experience as well, um, I've found that a lot of women really struggled to get access to mental health services in prison and, um, yeah, the, wait, as you said, the waiting lists are huge and sometimes it wasn't, um, fast enough or effective enough, so, um, but, but, um, so I think really the whole of the, um, healthcare system in prison probably needs, uh, an overhaul really for, for those who are most desperately in need.

Speaker 1:

Yes. For what was your experience of the way prisons look at mental health?

Speaker 5:

Just completely useless. I mean, there was no mental health support at all. Um, you have to beg and ask, Well, I mean, as you know, you don't really see the psychiatrist or the psychologist. It's all done through the nurse that you see in the morning who gives you your medication if you see someone from wanting meds, but the referral process is completely broken, and then you are told that you are not, um, you are not ill enough, you know, that you, your problem, there are women with a lot worse diagnoses than you. So it's belittled, it's not treated seriously. It compounds the trauma that's already there because if you, again, if you feel unheard and your experiences are invalidated again, and then you are being re-traumatized in this environment, you know, where there is physical violence and and emotional abuse all over the place, you see it all over the place. So I think, um, I, I, I think just to echo what Rob was saying, prison is not the place for women with mental health issues. And judges know that, you know, judges are aware of that, but unfortunately it seemed as a place to put women who are, um, I mean, if, if you look at this issue of the view, I don't know if you've all got it yet, it's been a little bit late coming out, but you'll see we've got a really interesting interview with the judge. And he says one of the reasons that he sends women to prison, well, people to prison is if they're sort of in nuisance in the community if they've exhausted all of the kind of community, uh, services and things available. So we, I think we need to re reexamine our, how we're using prisons and, and who therefore, but then this raises all the issues about, you know, money and finance and who's profiting. And I've just had to have a court report done yesterday, actually. Um, and, and it was 4,000 pounds. So who's profiting from this? You know, who he was on the, he was on Zoom with me for about an hour and a half, I think. And you know, he'll read the thousands and thousands of pages, but we need to look at, if you consider it costs 10,000 pounds a day to open a crown court, and no offense at all meant to solicitors or barristers, you know, in any way, Rob. But we just need to look at who's, who's profiting, who's benefiting, and who's being harmed. I think, you know, in the system as exist exists because mental health contracts are worth hundreds of millions of pounds a year, yet, you know, most people in prison who need them can't access them.

Speaker 1:

Hmm. This is a great point as well, Rob.

Speaker 3:

Great. If, if I may come back on, on, on some of those points because it's fascinating and things which I've been saying to people who would listen to me, um, for years and coming back to the financials of, of the issue we, we know in, in the mail estate, it can range between 30 to 50,000 pound a year to keep somebody in prison. And, and people have been waiting years and years to undertake accredited courses. Um, so the taxpayers been paying that amount of money each year for hundreds and hundreds of inmates because they're waiting to undertake a course, which a psychologist was blunt. And instead of employing more psychologists for the prison, the mathematical equation goes into complete disarray. So the government would rather pay 40,000 pound a year to keep the inmate there, rather than pay 40, 50,000 pound for prison psychologist to use down. So I think everything you've said about whose profiting is, is, is very relevant, uh, indeed. Um, and it appears that people in the heart of it don't receive much funding at all. Um, whereas, you know, as I say, the wider aspects, perhaps they do. Um, and you're right about the, the psychologist reports as well, um, in, in comparison to how legal aid lawyers are paid. Um, for, for one report a psychologist does, it's probably three or four times the amount that the lawyer would receive for representing the inmates a very important earing. So yeah.

Speaker 5:

And the burnout is so, I mean, I have a lot of friends who are solicitors and barristers and the burnout and the despair at the moment is just so vocal, you know, that I think they're, I'm not completely up to date with it, but I think they're talking about striking again because the conditions, you know, trials are getting poured at the last minute. Um, the conditions in courtroom, some of the physical conditions are so disgusting as well. And, you know, so this trauma is kind of, it's like a nut and then it's just growing and growing and growing and it's impacting all of the people involved. So, so solicitors are getting traumatized because there isn't, you can't do this on a shoes string. You have to be properly paid, you know, to, to do a good job. And I know legal aid budgets have strong, is it 37% or something? I mean, it's huge, isn't it? To do the same amount of work for one third less money.

Speaker 3:

This is it. And I, I've been doing this job since 2005, and in the area of prison law, there has not been a single increase in price since that time of fact, like the opposite. We've had two cuts since 2005. So, um, a lot of people are leaving the profession and they are, they are going to prosecuting instead. So we, we are going to have a real problem, um, with protecting people's rights in the future because they're simply not going to be the qualified lawyers to be able to do it because they're not coming into the industry because they know they're not going to be paid, You know, they're probably gonna be paid a theater as much as their counterparty works for the prosecution.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. And the problem is also that some, um, solicitors, unless, um, you're lucky enough to get somebody who has got a lot of experience, they might not know, they might not engage in independent psychologists to do a report, say at a lifer panel. And that could be the difference between somebody staying inside another two years or getting out. And obviously with the, yeah, as you said, with the cut and legal aid, um, it's, it's getting harder and harder. You know, I went on the march, um, the Howard League organizing the legal aid, uh, March, that happens I think most years where people are marching, um, to try and raise money for a legal aid. And I went as part of the Howard League, um, group because I'm a member of that. But there was, so to see all these solicitors marching just to get access to money to help, um, people in the most difficult circumstances in prison, and particularly people with mental health issues is quite scary that this is having people having to recourse to this because the government won't give up funding and, and that's gonna have a knock on effect. And, and, and as you say, it's gonna result in people being in prison longer, which again, is gonna cost about 60,000 pounds a year to keep somebody in prison. Uh, it's just like a, an endless cycle, isn't it? Um, I think, and that, that's the problem.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Claire. Naomi, how do you feel about this in connection to the young women you work with?

Speaker 2:

So I think, um, what I experience a lot of is, um, when I'm working with children, uh, we have a lot of sympathy for children, uh, who are being trauma quotes quite rightly. But as soon as they hit, and it seems to be around 14, I think the sympathy turns to that kind of lazy kind of, Well, why don't they do this? Why don't they try this? And I think that we have to be very careful, and the middle class is in particular, and, and this is, it is some of this is a class issue, unfortunately, we'll view a lot of women's experience through the prism of their own experience. So they're judging everything that choices that women make as, well, I wouldn't have done that, and why doesn't you do this? And why doesn't you do that? And I think as Rob said, he said, you know, that, that he, he mentioned something about being able to make choices. And I think that's really, really key. I think if we are going into, if we are viewing the prison system as you have done something wrong, you knew better, you need to come in here and learn how to do it better, and then when you go back out, you need to do it right this time. And we've taught you now that's what we're viewing as, which it seems largely that it does it, it does, it is seen that way. Um, we are completely missing the point that A, was it even a choice? Is this a survival, uh, issue? And B, are they are, are people capable? Are they in a position to make the choices that we're expecting them to make? Are they capable of, of changing without significant support? Um, and I think my answer to that would be, well, no, the first majority are not. Um, and equally we have the issue of as, as as been mentioned, this re-traumatizing. So if you're taking somebody who's trauma involves things like lack of control, um, disempowerment, um, sexual abuse, mental health issues, putting him into somewhere like a prison is almost literally the worst place that, that they can be. They can be put. Now really interestingly, I took, um, I, uh, I had to, I took a cab yesterday and the driver was a prison officer. So he, he asked me where I was going and I explained a little bit about the, the magazine, and he was a prison officer for 26 years, um, in a high security prison initially, and then in women's and, uh, young offenders. And he said that it was really interesting to him that, uh, from coming from the inside, he said that he didn't see, um, enough of the idea that we have of, you know, where there's a TV and they can do these courses and they, they have this kind of support. And he said, We, we didn't see that. Um, he said a lot of that is is lip service. And he said that in male prisons, what he noticed was a lot of externalized violence. So there'd be a violence of of prisoner against prisoner. But for women in women's prisons and young offenders, uh, institutes, it was self harm eating disorders because women and young people on the whole are much more likely to turn their trauma inwards on themselves. Um, and he would say, he said, you know, there was, there was a lot of noise made about making sure they don't have a sharp object, making sure that things aren't available to them to harm themselves and nowhere near enough on why they're harming themselves in the first place. So it was seen as a kind of, oh, you know, now they're acting up about this, let's take that away from them, but not nearly enough about, well, why is somebody sitting in their cell and self harming? So I think all of the points that have been raised are absolutely true, that if, unless you can categorically prove that, that a person is, is a risk to the community, prison is rarely going to be the best option. Um, and in terms of funding, I mean the, the, the, the cost that we're talking about in terms of, you know, um, uh, mental health, uh, and keeping people, uh, in the prison system are, are, are absolutely versed. And I don't see that there can be a, a significant amount more money involved if we're talking about rehabilitation centers. You know, if, if we're thinking that prison, you know, you need a prison guard, you need, um, a nurse, you need, um, to keep prisons running, they need heating, there's food, there's all of these things. I don't understand where those figures come from, that there's not enough money to do that, particularly when what we're looking at is the likelihood of re-offending being so extremely high. Surely you could argue if we reapp rehabilitate once and problems not solved, but problem improved, well, how is that financially or fiscally viable then to just have somebody on this treadmill of imprisonment release, imprisonment release, imprisonment release. So I, I don't, I dispute the, um, the funding as an issue really. I think it's, it's bad planning and I think it's an ness because I think people want something to be seen to be done. They want people to go to prison if they've made bad choices, as in, well, I wouldn't do that. And they have, So that's how it's as if some kind of social naughty step that we just send people to so that we don't have to deal with them anymore. Um, and as soon as you start talking about things like rehabilitation financials taken out of the equation, people immediately have this. But why should they have that and why should they have that? And I, I've been on waiting list for therapy for six months and why should they have that? And the answer is, what do you want these outcomes to be? If you want these outcomes to improve, this is what needs to happen. So yeah, I, I completely agree that that prison is, is rarely going to be the best option unless somebody is a significant proven risk to the community.

Speaker 5:

Sorry, could been a, you know, a million words written on exactly what you've said, that that justice reinvestment, it's called where you take money that's in crime and police and court budgets and you put it into community solutions, mental health, social services, social justice kind of outcomes. So there's been, I don't know how many reports, I mean, there's Lord Wolf the strange ways, there's Lord Pharma, there's, uh, the, the Bradley report, there's the question report. There's, I mean, endless, endless reports and everyone agrees that what we're doing is not the right thing to do. So when you start to, I think the problem is trauma. I think when you ask people to look at the trauma that we're all involved in causing, because actually we're, we're paying for this, you know, we're paying to fund this abusive and harmful system, I think it's really hard to hold that, that thought that actually my taxpayer's money, you know, your contributions are being used to pay that. And it's easier to shut that argument out of your head and just go for the Daily Mail narrative, which is, she's a woman, she committed a crime, she must be Mara Henley, um, let's just throw, lock her up and throw away the key. So, so it's, it's really, you know, there's that everyone, when you approach it rationally like you are and say the costs are too much, there has to be a better solution, that, that's kind of where the stumbling block is for everyone. And I think that's the thing that's really hard to overcome for most people.

Speaker 3:

Claire.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I was at the launch of the, when the Center for Social Justice launched a report, um, the latest that a couple of years ago, um, and where they were looking at, um, where they basically accepted that around 70% or more of the women had exper who ended up in prison, um, or committing an offense, had, um, undergone, undergone massive trauma. And it was more common amongst women than men, although obviously it does happen with the male estate. But, um, and there that, you know, and the report basically said about all these alternatives to custody. Um, and, you know, the, and, and there was the, uh, at the time the prison, uh, minister at the time, and he was agreeing with it all and, um, it, it was sounded like, Oh, things might eventually, this is a move on from Coston and things might eventually change. But then the problem was, um, you know, they said, Oh yes, we, we, the government keep on saying, Oh yes, we're looking at solutions, but then they, they're thinking of, um, about building a, a prison in Wales with 500, um, places a new prison instead of looking at, you know, putting that money into the things that they say they agree with. So it, it's, it's very difficult, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Rob, how do you feel about this building new prisons versus lack of openness for other solutions?

Speaker 3:

I I think the points have, have been made by everyone contributing, have been extremely valid. And I, I think, um, it, it boils down to political issues and, and, and essentially parties wanting to keep, maintain their popularity with, with the general public. Um, because the reality is there isn't a great deal of sympathy for people in prison. Uh, and defenders in the general public is, has certainly been my experience in other forums when I've spoken to people. Um, and I think because of that, ultimately political parties are, are frightened of, of losing votes and so forth if they are deemed to be treating, uh, inmates, you know, and so forth, leniently, when of course that isn't the reality at all. And, and that's why these events and talks are so important. Try and educate the wider public as, as much as anything else that people do need help and there are other alternatives to prison and it's not, you know, an easy ride because we are suggesting these alternatives to people. Um, one of the, one of the, the, the things that crops up with other people I've spoken about a lot is regarding the help people get training in prison and so forth and, and qualifications people can undertake. And that's a fundamentally important part of the prison system as I view it. Um, but when I've spoken to people about the kind of qualifications some people have obtained in prison, they have said to me, Well, why, why should they get the money for those qualifications? I have to pay for that when I, when I'm out. And my answer to that is, Well, you don't need the help. It's, it's, it's akin to giving people disability allowance. We give it to people who need it and, and the people who need it are the people who have suffered trauma who are in prison. You know, who, who, who need investing it. And that's the only way you are going to try and help, help people break this cycle coming back to prison again and again.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much Rob, and thanks to all the panelists that brings to close our first part of three of this podcast included in our Someone's Daughter podcast series, a discussion today which has been about the role of women who have lived experience and may be part of the solution to the entrenched problems of re-offending and crime. So stay tuned for the next part of this podcast coming next week. Thank you so much. Naomi Harlow, Rob Walsh, Far Aamg and Claire Barstow. The View would also like to thank leading law firm, Insala and Garnica 37 legal chambers for their sponsorship and support of someone's daughter, Experts in prison law and human rights, defending the rights of people across the world. You can go online and search for someone's daughter to see powerful women photographed by world renowned and acclaimed photographers. Read their stories in the View Magazine and be inspired by these very shocking narratives, but also by these excellent constructive solutions. I'm Madelina Alberto, and this Rebel podcast is a production of The View Magazine. You can find the View Magazine across our social media where we are Rebel Justice. The View Magazine is available online via subscription and as a digital download on the view mag.org.uk. Support Amplify, donate.

One’s experience could educate and inform others
Prioritize more alternatives to customy
Women in prison struggle to get mental health services
Traumatic experience in prison
Inadequate support
Trauma is internalized for women and young people, causing eating disorder
Inadequate funding on rehabilitation