The VIEW Magazine CiC
Presents
Rebel Justice Podcasts : Episode 2: The Relationship Between The Photographer And Subject.
The View's Eleanor speaks to activist Jen Reid, photographers Harry Borden,Jenny Baptiste, and mental health campaigner Sue Wheatcroft about their experiences on both sides of the camera.
Our second episode is about the experience on both sides of the camera between art and activism. The Someone’s Daughter project takes photographs of women who have been involved in the criminal justice system. Survivors, lawyers and activist women who were interested in the process from charge and arrest to incarceration through to rehabilitation who are engaging in a dialogue around justice reform for women. So, we dive into photography as a subject that moves away from the world of high fashion, shaping ordinary people and creating stunning images by telling powerful stories. True photography is about documenting real human interaction and deriving an intrinsic pleasure from the process of taking photographs, rather than using photographic techniques to give people a stamp of approval. No matter how confident a person may be, staring into a camera is a privileged experience. This sometimes can feel like it exposes our weakness, but the photographer will capture that soft side.
Harry Boden says: "I think I've learned a lot from taking photographs because before I took them I didn't realise it was about getting inside people, not just the outside." Photographers realise that photographs need to capture the heart and mind, and not just the external image. As a photographer, making connections and producing personal images with people is vital, says Jenny Baptiste, "Because I can't afford film, I have to train my eye so it knows that I can't shoot rolls of film. I wanted to get another side of their personality in the images I selected and bring in who they were, which was very personal."
Photographers approach the concept of image creation sympathetically, as they develop the image to gain a more personal image.
Harry says, "Photography reflects my development as a person. Initially I would focus more on technique, but as I continued to change I focused more on creating an emotional impact with the photographs".
Personality is expressed through the eyes, like the black, militaristic mask in the photograph of Sue Wheatcroft, demonstrating strength and determination.
During the Global Covid Pandemic photography was a huge challenge. Throughout this time Harry shifted the focus of his photography, which required a human connection, to personal work.
Intimate portraits of single fathers, and stories of love, loss and the healing power of family. This period of lockdown allowed for experimentation in finding alternative ways of communicating and very creative ways of thinking. Making people aware that there are many other things to do in life, such as caring more about family and parents.
More on Someone’s Daughter here.
With thanks to all our panellists and the many people who made Someone’s Daughter possible. The campaign continues, globally, so watch our social media for dates and further announcements.
© The View Magazine 2021
Narration and Questions by Eleanor, edited by Holly McVe.
Produced by The View Magazine
For more unmissable content from The View sign up here
The VIEW Magazine CiC
Presents
Rebel Justice Podcasts : Episode 2: The Relationship Between The Photographer And Subject.
The View's Eleanor speaks to activist Jen Reid, photographers Harry Borden,Jenny Baptiste, and mental health campaigner Sue Wheatcroft about their experiences on both sides of the camera.
Our second episode is about the experience on both sides of the camera between art and activism. The Someone’s Daughter project takes photographs of women who have been involved in the criminal justice system. Survivors, lawyers and activist women who were interested in the process from charge and arrest to incarceration through to rehabilitation who are engaging in a dialogue around justice reform for women. So, we dive into photography as a subject that moves away from the world of high fashion, shaping ordinary people and creating stunning images by telling powerful stories. True photography is about documenting real human interaction and deriving an intrinsic pleasure from the process of taking photographs, rather than using photographic techniques to give people a stamp of approval. No matter how confident a person may be, staring into a camera is a privileged experience. This sometimes can feel like it exposes our weakness, but the photographer will capture that soft side.
Harry Boden says: "I think I've learned a lot from taking photographs because before I took them I didn't realise it was about getting inside people, not just the outside." Photographers realise that photographs need to capture the heart and mind, and not just the external image. As a photographer, making connections and producing personal images with people is vital, says Jenny Baptiste, "Because I can't afford film, I have to train my eye so it knows that I can't shoot rolls of film. I wanted to get another side of their personality in the images I selected and bring in who they were, which was very personal."
Photographers approach the concept of image creation sympathetically, as they develop the image to gain a more personal image.
Harry says, "Photography reflects my development as a person. Initially I would focus more on technique, but as I continued to change I focused more on creating an emotional impact with the photographs".
Personality is expressed through the eyes, like the black, militaristic mask in the photograph of Sue Wheatcroft, demonstrating strength and determination.
During the Global Covid Pandemic photography was a huge challenge. Throughout this time Harry shifted the focus of his photography, which required a human connection, to personal work.
Intimate portraits of single fathers, and stories of love, loss and the healing power of family. This period of lockdown allowed for experimentation in finding alternative ways of communicating and very creative ways of thinking. Making people aware that there are many other things to do in life, such as caring more about family and parents.
More on Someone’s Daughter here.
With thanks to all our panellists and the many people who made Someone’s Daughter possible. The campaign continues, globally, so watch our social media for dates and further announcements.
© The View Magazine 2021
Narration and Questions by Eleanor, edited by Holly McVe.
Produced by The View Magazine
For more unmissable content from The View sign up here
Welcome to the View of Magazine's Rebel Justice podcast. This is the second podcast in this series about our campaign at someone's daughter. We look at how photographers can capture the personality of a sitter in a portrait. In our second panel, which was recorded during photo London in September, 2021, Claire Beto speaks to activist Jenn Reed photographers, Harry b Jenny Baptist and Mental Health Container Sue Wheat Roth, about their experiences on both sides of the camera.
Speaker 2:This
Speaker 1:Is an exceptional art and activism project where we have paired up wild, famous and acclaimed photographers to take photos of women who have been involved in the criminal justice system. Some are survivors, some are lawyers, some are activists, and others are leading women in the public life who have taken an interest in all of the processes from charging and arrest to incarceration to rehabilitation. They are participating in the dialogue around this. Today's panel is exceptional because we are mixing art and activism. We're talking about the very delicate process of working with a subject away from the world of high fashion and modeling ordinary people creating amazing images by telling powerful stories.
Speaker 2:Harry
Speaker 1:Balden, let me bring you in. First of all, you're at Photo London right now. What is the process of working with the city like for this very particular and quite sensitive project?
Speaker 3:Well, really my ethos has always been the portrait is the record of the relationship you have with the person on the day. And so one of my shoots and my subject came to my home over the weekend. So it very, And we just fun and enjoyed getting know one another. And really a successful portrait is basically recording an authentic human exchange. If you kind of take that approach, you get something that has some truth to it. So in both instances, I felt as is always the case when something goes successfully that I've made a new friend. Really,
Speaker 1:How do you put someone else at ease? You're an artist, you're a photographer, you are used to doing what you do. But if you offer photographing someone who's not a professional model and you might have come through some traumatic events, what's your photographic process like? Do you make them a cup of tea? Do you ask them some questions about something they've spotted in their home? How does it work?
Speaker 3:I try to avoid any preconceived ideas. I tend to, you know, I'm sort of long enough in the that to that is one where I'm sort of relaxed and just having fun and being playful and deriving sort of intrinsic pleasure from the of takings rather than stamping people with photographic technique. So in all of the above, have a cup tea, really sort of have a, I innate sort of human curiosity in my fellow peoples. It's nice to sort of get a sense of who people are and what brought them here on the day and then basically sort of see what happens. I mean, it's a sort of lovely dance and marriage between sort photographic technique, understanding light and as I said, kinda meeting another person and getting a sense of who they're, and really you kinda wanna be sufficiently in control of the medium that you can just have fun.
Speaker 1:Jen Reed, let me ask you, your photos are very spectacular and they're one of the main images of the someone's daughter exhibition. What was the process of sitting like you, no matter how confident one is in daily life, staring down a lens is a very particular kind of experience.
Speaker 3:I am very camera shy, I believe it or not, I think Leia, who, who was my photographer? My daughter's Leila I think. And I'm an old woman and she was younger, so that kind of put me at ease. But, but the thing makes you feel really exposed and I felt exposed in those pictures, hence why I think at the beginning I had my glasses on and after a while I'd start to feel more comfortable with her. But it's that thing of, of feeling really exposed when she captured my vulnerability, which is quite difficult to do with me. Um, always ready for action in that sense if you're not me. But she just caught that softer side of me. We were obviously in the middle of the pandemic when it all came about again, so we actually met outdoors. Um, she's absolutely lovely, put me at ease, a really, really nice girl. So yeah, it's about me feeling comfortable and feeling vulnerable. And it's funny until I saw the subject matter of, of today's panel, it's not something that I've thought about, but actually when you pose that question's, like it makes you feel vulnerable, you know, she got me take my glasses off to reveal me in every sense.
Speaker 1:You feel that the final portraits captures something of you that you usually conceal from people?
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah,<laugh> and that's probably why I don't like thinking about it. Think that's probably why I do not like my pictures being taken. Cause there is that softer side of me and it's, it's about who you let in and who you let see that. It's quite interesting.
Speaker 1:I have one more question for you right now, which is you mentioned that you are always ready for action and this process of forcible relaxation is quite a new thing. I wondered if what you are describing is a kind of hyper vigilance, always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, it's there in my every day. It always has been Preta pre-Black Lives Matter. I think I work on a very show your cards first, you know, I'll stay silently strong, but let me see your cards and then I'll can give you whatever card you put down. I'll match them, put down more. I'll put down more, but it is there.
Speaker 1:Sea Week cro, we're moving over from talking about art to talking about activism. We are speaking to you Jen and Harry from very luxurious booth at Photo London. I mean, that screen looks like something and it's just such a relief to see all the art and the glam and the beauty happening. In what way can a project like someone's daughter get people who are genuinely unengaged with these issues around criminal justice and activism to link into these sorts of debates?
Speaker 4:I think I've, I've learned a lot through Jenny<inaudible> taking my photograph because before I, I did it treated it like any other photo shoot and I didn't realize that it's all about getting the person inside rather than just the outside. So I think you can, you can tell a lot of my, my photo, I had a, a mask on. And so it's all about the eyes and I think you can see a lot through the eyes.
Speaker 1:How did Jenny Baptist make a connection with you? That connection between photograph her and Sitter is an intimate photograph that shows who you are, but you're being photographed by a stranger?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I I didn't feel like Jenny was a stranger. We'd spoken on the phone before and when we met Jenny's such a lovely person and, and so relaxed and so I felt like we were friends. I didn't feel intimidated at all by, uh, what we were doing. But like I said, I didn't realize at the start that it was all about the person, you know, about, um, what's inside
Speaker 1:Jenny Baptist. Let's bring you in here. How do you go about getting inside the life and the mind and the sensibility of the people you're photographing? You photographed some very famous names from a very glamorous world, very fast moving world, and yet you have to produce quite a personal image of them. What's your method, Jenny?
Speaker 3:I think, I mean my foundation from when I started out photography back in the late nineties shooting of hiphop artists, I had a limited amount of time. I wasn't given an hour, so my privilege was probably half an hour or 20 minutes. And when I did my degree, I couldn't afford to buy roles and roles in film. So I, I said to myself, I've gotta train my eye so that I can shoot X amount of film within an X amount of time because, you know, I can't shoot roles and roll and roles. And so I think over the years I've, I've taught myself to be able to do that. Um, but to also to be able to engage with my subject and get another side of their personality in the image that I end up depicting because it's really important to me that I bringing their identity and it's not my perception of who they are because a portrait is very personal. And you know, with Sue and yourself, I wanted to bring in an essence of your personality, you know, within this short space of time that we had together. And for example, with Sue, uh, came down from up north and, and we had just spoken on the phone, um, a couple of times and you know, I used that to kind of talk to her about her life, um, what she had done, um, what had happened, um, how she felt about it, what her favorite colors were, just to get an insight into her personality because I knew I wanted to kind of bring that within the forefront of the image that I was gonna put together. And you know, Sue mentioned to me that the royal course of justice was a real significant place for her. You know, it was important that she was shot outside there, um, due to what happened inside. So I didn't take her into the studio under beautiful lights and um, you know, try and depict as totally part of her personality. That really wouldn't have been an honest representation for me. It's really important as, as a photographer to try and get insight into whoever I'm shooting and bring that essence of them out.
Speaker 1:Something that you said about Jenny photographing famous people, I want to ask you about the question of image. You mentioned the idea of using something like very beautiful sunglasses or a super chic hat. It looks great, but it's also detracting from the other things where you might feel more vulnerable. How important is the idea of constructing an image that's not just about self-defense, it's also about showing the world who you are in a positive way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely agree, but I think that's as and when necessary and I think obviously being thrown into the limelight in the way that I have, it's doing that in a very intelligent manner. You know, state, prior to all of this, there would've been very different conversations and very colorful language involved, even when I see fit to do so, you know, it's almost like I've had to not reinvent myself. I'm still me. My daughter would say to me, Mum, use your words. You know, not, you know, it's, it's just very different and it's, you know, I don't have all the answers, but it's that thing of people looking at me and looking at me for all. I don't have all the answers. It's articulating myself in a way to make myself heard. Um, you know, there's pressure in that way, but it's still about standing strong, still being me, but not giving people all of me just, I dunno if that makes sense, but
Speaker 1:It absolutely does. And I have a follow up question On the route towards becoming an activist, did you have to think quite intentionally about what do I put out there? What do I stand for and what am I going to say and not say?
Speaker 3:Okay, so there's, it's funny you should ask that at, at the outset, when all of this happened, I was very conscious not calling myself an activist, right? Cause there people been out there campaigning, doing this and that for, for the good of me, et cetera, and people of color, whatever. It's, as I start to have interviews and start talking about, just as we were talking before, do you know when you're talking you're realizing things about yourself, it's only cause you're now vocalizing it. And then I just thought, hang on a minute, I've been an activist since I was about five years old.<laugh>, you know, I was that person who stood up as the only black child in my school and putting people straight and all by myself, you know? So I have been an activist and it's just like, actually no I am. And, and now I'm owning it. That's what I'm doing. And I'm now saying, you know, first it was like the accidental activist, but no, I am and I always have been. But now it's vocalizing that and being throwing into the limelight and trying to polish up the, uh, the rough edges, so to speak. You know, it's very, very different. Um, it's articulating that, but you know, I'll still be me. I'll only give what somebody is showing me depending on how, how deep that goes. But if you want to go deep, I can go, go very deep. I'd rather camera's not be honest,
Speaker 1:We can keep it semi on the surface. We can be frank without having to pour salt in the wounds today.
Speaker 3:I'm really comfortable here. I feel really open. I don't feel vulnerable. I feel comfortable, I feel vulnerable, but I feel comfortable with it because of the company that this is in and what it's about. You know, when it's kind of outside that we like looking at certain media companies, it's different. So yeah.
Speaker 1:That's perfect. Harry, how do you approach the concept of image creation? I mean, you come across as so empathetic and low key, but you are also participating in the creation of an image. So this is not a totally candid family shot. You're still looking at composition at photos and lighting, aesthetic and all the other elements, all of that conscious view or are you very much a photographer that looks into the frame and styles it or is it really about the feeling?
Speaker 3:Um, well I think as I've evolved as a photographer, I think initially you are trying to sort of gain a control over the medium. I think when you start, actually when I started in, in sort of 30 years ago, it's sort of rewarded so-called masculine traits, uh, sort of control and obsession and kind of a, a degree of, uh, virtue, also mastery of of, of this craft. But actually interestingly, because of technological advances, it's become more something that's more rewarding sort of traditionally associated with female traits in terms of communication and intimacy and empathy and compassion because, um, cameras now are very accessible and the medium is much more open and democratic. Everyone's carrying phones and so on, you can get great results with those, uh, equipment. Photography's much more interesting and, and it's sort of mirrored my development as a, as a person. And so I think when I was younger I was kind of very typical young man and I was sort of, I thought of photography in a certain way and I thought it was about the technique. And then as I've got better, as I've sort of got more, I can sort of lead the technique to one side and sort of concentrate on, on creating intimacy. And so for me now I think I look for the emotional impact of a picture rather than it's sort of, it's empty. If you're just looking at something that's tech technically beautiful, if it doesn't have an emotional connection then, and a sort of intimacy for me,
Speaker 1:If you have someone in front of you who is really trying their best and really trying to participate but is seizing up and finding it very awkward and very difficult, you might know that you are not getting it. It just looks very stiff. How do you put them at ease?
Speaker 3:I don't have any kind of cynical sort of mercenary techniques. I tend to sort of just improvise. For me, the creative process is one best when things happen playfully for me, you know, musically, you know, uh, you they truly brilliant musicians of of people, you know, jazz musicians that can kind of improvise spontaneously on. But in the spur of the moment, interesting pictures that I've taken in the course of the last 30 years, the pictures that kind of really invigorate me, having taken, you know, at the end of the year you sort of look back on these really special pictures. Quite often they're moments and there moments that just presented themselves. And if you are, you have to be alive to that happening. You can't kind of create these things cynically. You can create a kind of well crafted image that sort of appears to certain technical aesthetic considerations. But the really wonderful images that fly are just sort of moments that happen. I mean, one of the things I realized about 10 years ago, I did this thing called vi pasta meditation, and you just observe your sensations on your body and you basically spending the whole day meditating. It's kind of like hardcore meditation. Uh, and the idea is that you sort of get in the moment. And then I had this sort of realization that during the course of my career that one of the reasons that keeps me taking pictures is that you are literally capturing moments when you take pictures. You are literally in the moment. You can't do it in a kind of considered and and controlled way. You have to sort of just be totally connected and in the moment and in the flow. And that's when sort of magic happens for,
Speaker 1:This is where I want to renew in see, because Jenny Baptist mentioned something about the environment you chose. Why were the royal Courts of justice so important for you and why was it so resonant emotionally for you to be photographed there?
Speaker 4:I'd done a conference there for the Prisoner Reform Trust and they asked me to speak about my experience in, in prison. And I don't know if if you've read it, it's in the View Magazine, it was about a particular incident and what it's like in in prison for people with mental health difficult is, and I'd like to come back to what Jen said earlier about she thinks she's always been an activist since the age of five, but for me it was the opposite. And I don't think I, what didn't have the strength, I think until I went to prison. Prison gave me a lot of strength because that's where I decided that no, I'm going to do something about this. I'm, I'm not gonna take it laying down. I'm going to speak up for myself, which is why I spent so much time in segregation. But when I came out, I was determined, I was more determined than I'd ever been. I was in my fifties, so the Roll Court of Justice was a turning point. It was one of the first times that people really listened. I mean, I do a lot of writing and, and it's okay if people read it, but when you are doing a speech and you can see people's reaction, it's so much better and, and it spurs you on as well. I mean I've done quite a lot of speeches since then. Before prison, I, I couldn't have got a, I mean I, I, I am an academic as well and I used to do promotion for the book that I, I wrote, I was so nervous. But now I'm more like, Oh, pick me, pick me<laugh>. You know, I've knock people over on the way to the stage.<laugh>, I can credit I suppose prison for that, but not in a way that I didn't do courses and things like that. And it didn't help me that way. It just made me determined to help other people because I could see the injustice.
Speaker 1:You say that so powerfully and you are so inspiring and yet Jenny's picture of you is actually with this black, almost military looking mask on it and all of your personalities in your eyes and with the full determination resolve, I wonder if you, what was going through your mind in those moments that Jenny was photographing you because the photo is so impactful, even though we are just seeing this much of you.
Speaker 4:We had quite a few photos obviously when it came to that one. I was wanting to show strength and determination and what I was thinking at the time was, I'm not putting up with it anymore. That kind of attitude I wanted that to come through. I think determination and strength and I, I think it's also, it, it's interesting for other people who, who don't think that they're strong enough to do certain things. If you've got lived experience, I think it spurs you on, you couldn't do this kind of work without lived experience. Could you, I mean you wouldn't be as determined now without the lived experience you've got probably, would you? I mean, so a lot of injustice as a child, but I didn't have the strength then, but I do have the strength now.
Speaker 1:Jenny, can you tell us how you engage with your subject before you meet them?
Speaker 3:I think I was quite conscious that everyone had just kind of come out of lockdown. I shot you in September last year and I felt that it was important that I couldn't just go to your house with a camera and expect to get the essence of your personality within the image that I wanted to capture. And so I felt that I had to speak to you and, and to find out a bit about your personality and what your likes were and what your dislikes were. And also because the role that you have within the legal system, but also within the media, well, because you're on two sides of it. Um, which is really interesting. And I think be able to do that, you've got to have a really strong personality, but you've also got to be very welcoming and quite warm and empathetic. So for me I wanted to be able to bring that within the image itself and I knew, you know, I knew in advance that I was gonna shoot you at your house within the garden, but I had never been to the garden before so I had to be able to kind of visualize from what you had told me. Um, and you know, when I got there I knew what areas I kind of wanted to focus on and you know, for me, when I'm doing a portrait of someone like yourself or Sue, you know, it's not about getting dressed up, it's about being authentic to your personality and who you are and your identity shining through. So that's why I have that conversation to kind of find out what you like to wear clothes wise, where something that you're comfortable with that you're gonna be happy wearing, I'm not gonna dictate that. I'm just gonna kind of maneuver you into a way that's gonna make you comfortable so that I can get the best out of the shoe.
Speaker 1:Harry, I want to ask you, because Jenny brought up the issue of the pandemic. How has the experience of being a photographer who's very connected to people, how has pursuing you, your craft been going for the last 18 months?
Speaker 3:Uh, well it's been quite challenging. I think it kind of focused on a kind of purely dividing up the pie chart of my sort of practice. I kind of turned the focus onto, um, getting, um, my personal work out there. So I'd done a series of portraits of single parent fathers and so that published in the spring this year, single dad on top of mini press. And so basically, uh, I, I made a pdf, you know, I had a lot of time on my hands. I was also sort of homeschooling my, uh, 10 year old. Um, but you know, he's quite precocious and didn't need to be managed too much. So I was able to sort of work on these personal projects. And also, I mean, I did find it that it was actually, um, after the novelty wore off, we'd been swimming in the river and we'd done all the things that really you should set aside time to do anyway as a parent, I, I realized how photography kind of has made my life meaningful and enabled me to sort of, uh, the part of my camera sort of been a passport to, uh, to sort of have a reason to connect with people. And so yeah, at times I have found it quite difficult. It's kind of uh, helped me appreciate how lucky I am. There's a photographer called Tom, so he's a documentary photographer and he described being a photographer as having a champagne lifestyle on a beer salary. I think there's something in there cause I just think the past, the camera enables you to sort of, uh, have a reason to go into s homes and, and ask them really into questions, which I do. I do the same thing. And when I'm sort of talking to my subject, both of my subjects for this piece, you know, for me I quite often after I've done a shoot my subject sort of say that it's like group analysis. You know, we sort of, we've been through a a kind of a really got to know each other in a really profoundly intimate way and I think, you know, it's, it's great you know, having a camera enables you to have a reason to connect like that.
Speaker 1:Jenny photographers themselves are actually very interesting people so it's always a pleasure to meet someone who's a photographer because you go out and you meet a wide variety of characters and settings. So it's very fascinating to ask for photographer. What else have you been doing this month, this week? There's often a split between the commercial work and the personal and private projects. So it's fascinating to hear
Speaker 3:Just as a little postscript to that, you know, initially after I sort of, my initial response to being asked to be involved in this was that actually maybe I suggested a couple of female photographers cause I just thought maybe it would be inappropriate for, we don't really need another white sort of middle-aged man sort of contributing. Uh, but then afterwards when they is insistent upon me being involved that it, it was great to have a reason to go out and connect, you know, because I dunno about you, but it had been months since, or certainly weeks since I'd done anything. And so it's like gives as say it gives our lives meaning go on. Sorry. Yes, definitely just so agree with what Harry was saying. I mean after being in knock down for months and then it was just beautiful to be able to kind of just be able to shoot again and to connect with another human being on that level, on a photographic level as well because you know, it's something that I enjoy, we enjoy doing and photographers and so to kind of come out of lockdown after months on end and have something like this to work on was just, it was impactful for me. It was, you know, it was such an enjoyable experience meeting you both and getting to learn about what you both do and having to, having the opportunity to spend time as well.
Speaker 1:I wanted to throw over this question about the pandemic to Jen Reed and Sue Wheatcroft. Jen I'll bring you in first. We entered the pandemic at the absolute height of talking about inequalities and racism and state violence and all of these other things and then all of a sudden we are perked under house arrest for 18 months. What's it been like for you maintaining connection, motivation and keeping the fire going
Speaker 3:Regard the pandemic? It's just finding other ways to communicate. Um, you know, being very creative and thinking, you know, people to did all facts squares and this, but you know, more needs to happen in that. And it's um, you know, we've had lots of art projects in Bristol memory, the um, the protest that was in Bristol on the 7th of June and you know, people have to remember people marched there for George. It then turned into the end. It wasn't about, it was about George Floyd I think, you know, that had kind of been lost. So to me it's very important to kind do those interviews to kind of get that message across as to why yeah, you know, I'm quite solitary in that sense. Pandemic wise, it's kind of it given me a reset. I've got loads of things going on my life and look after my elderly parents and I, what people don't realize. I've got so much stuff going on in my life that's kind of like the outside of that, but you know, I've got such serious, serious stuff like my family and my parents. So it is given me that opportunity actually to careful them more than if there was no pandemic I was working. So yeah, they've had the best care from me.
Speaker 1:It's so important that you mention other things that are important. We're speaking as if careers, photography, creativity are all that matters when there's a huge amount of other things going on that's happening in life. Life stuff is even more important. And that's why I want to ask you, Sue, I've come to know you through someone's daughter as a survivor, an activist and a leader in this field, but you also have life stuff going on. You're also finding your feet and talking about holding your head up high and growing into this role of an activist. The last 18 months have been difficult, but everyone, how have they been for you?
Speaker 4:I think I've been busier actually because I realize now how much time I wasted getting on a train to go to London for an hour's meeting and then coming back again and, and the things that I could have been doing<laugh>, you know, we could have a Zoom meeting for an hour. I didn't need, I don't need to go. So actually I've been busier and my wife is disabled so she's quite happy. She's quite happy that I'm around more and cause she has carers, so it is done as a favor in a way. And I do run, uh, mental health support groups and we've been able to go international rather than just local. So we, we have people from Mexico and India and everywhere now. So in that way I don't wanna say anything positive about a pandemic, but in that way it has done as a, a little bit of a favor, but yet it's been busier. I've been able to do more writing and a 10 more meeting cause I'm not on a train somewhere.
Speaker 1:My final question, and I'll stick with you, Sue. First photo London has it VIP preview date today, it's opening to you the public tomorrow and it's running until the weekend. There are dozens and dozens of exhibitors, but none are combining art and activism in quite the way that someone's daughter does. So let me just ask you first, what do you want people to take away from the someone's daughter project and the projects?
Speaker 4:I'm thinking of people who want to do something about what's going on, whether it's mental health, women imprisoned or both, and look at what's gone on through someone's daughter and believe in themselves and think, well, I mean, for example, my story, I wasn't an activist, um, but I find the strength, they can find the strength as well if they don't feel strong enough right now. Look at the people around Photo London, someone's daughter, and, and even if you do something small, it doesn't matter. You're doing it for yourself as well as other people and it makes you feel great to be part of something like this, but also to try and change things. It's very good for your mental health for a start because you are, you, you've got a mission. If you like
Speaker 1:Jenny Baptized people take on board that sense of mission that Sue talks about. What would you like them to take away as a photographer who shot two of the women as part of the sums daughter project?
Speaker 3:I think for me, I'd like, um, people to take away an awareness to kind of delve deeper, to look further into you, take those steps, educate themselves. This, this was an entire new journey for me as well as a photographer. And you know, when I was approached by Claire initially straight away I was like, yes, I wanna be involved because it's empowering, you know, and it's doing something that's gonna help, but also it's gonna create an awareness and a change, which is, you know, fundamentally the most important thing.
Speaker 1:Harry, I'll bring you in here. You've spoken about your initial trepidation about being involved in this. Um, we're now celebrating the flourishing end point, in fact the launch of someone's daughter. What would you like someone to see and to feel and to think about when they start coming in at the public giving tomorrow?
Speaker 3:Oh, well I just reiterate what Jenny said. I mean, I just think it's important to raise awareness of, of these issues. Um, and uh, you know, not to waste so much talent and kind of human potential. Uh, you know, it just seems, it just seems so, just in fact, you know, I was actually watching fun the Cookies Nest the other night, which I hadn't seen for ages and person I was with pointed out that JFK is kind of quite a little known esoteric fact, but John F. Kennedy, um, his father had a daughter who was and the bottom eyes and basically lived until she, until her eighties in a sanitarium as a zombie cuz she was sort of considered to be sort of hysterical and that she suffered from ni Romania, just the term they used at the time. And, uh, I just think that, you know, so much, um, human potential is wasted. We're moving in the right direction. We don't, we don't women cause they don't conform to a sort of a narrow idea of what we consider to be acceptable, but we do sort of incarcerate them. And I think, you know, as Jenny said, it's really about raising awareness. That's, that's why I wanted to, I have an elder daughter that I'm actually doing a, a collaborative project with that she's 25 and, and basically whenever we are together, starting the beginning of 2019, she draws a picture of me and I photograph her and it's called First Drawn. I, I dunno where it's gonna leave, but it's by far in a way my most important project as far as I'm concerned because it sort of encapsulates my, my role as a father and also as somebody who's an advocate for her and for women generally.
Speaker 1:Jen Reid, final words from you. We're reaching the culmination point of someone's daughter. This is obviously going to run and run, but tell us where we can go from here.
Speaker 3:For me, it's people to, to look at these images of women look into their eyes and it's about them as people, as of their circumstances and the, the courage that's taken them to be where they are now. Everybody has a story. The easiest thing to do is not always the right thing to do. And I want each of these women to be honest about up here and just to keep on going, to keep on having that conversation to force conversations and to make change. And we can do that, reflect with the support of each other.
Speaker 1:Thank you very, very much indeed. Harry b Jenny Baptized photographers Sue Wheatcroft and Jen Reed. Activists someone's daughter is our campaign to change the way that you see justice. That brings to a close our second podcast, a discussion which has been all about the relationship between art and activism and the sitter. Go online and search for someone's daughter to see powerful women photographed by world renowned and acclaimed photographers. Read their stories in the View Magazine and be inspired by these very shocking narratives, but also by these excellent constructive solutions. Thank you everyone who's been part of the podcast today. Check in next week for our third podcast about someone's daughter. Can women we've lived experience be part of the solution hosted by Claire Bato,
Speaker 5:The View would like to thank, or someone's daughter sponsors GU 37 International Law Chambers who represent people all over the world where injustice and harm is being done. An Insta law, prison law and criminal defense listers based in the northeast. Thank you for all that you do and all that you are and for making someone's daughter possible.