Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
What is justice? Who does it serve? Why should you care?
When we think about justice, we think about it as an abstract, something that happens to someone else, somewhere else. Bad people. But justice and the law regulate every aspect of our interactions with each other, with organisations, with the government.
We never think about it until it impacts our lives, or that of someone close.
News, views and trues from The View Magazine, a social justice and campaigning platform for the rights of women in the justice system.
Our guests are women with lived experience of the justice system whether as victims or women who have committed crimes; people at the forefront of civic action who put their lives on the line to demand a better world such as maligned climate justice campaigners.
We ask them to share their insight into how we might repair a broken and harmful system, with humanity and dignity.
We also speak with people who are in the heart of of the justice system creating important change, climate activists, judges, barristers, human rights campaigners, mental health advocates, artists and healers.
The View believes that we can rebuild lives with hope, and successfully reintegrate people who have caused harm or been harmed, through the restoring nature of art and creativity, open dialogue and - love.
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
Episode 32 - Cell Outs - the adventures and misadventures of two former prison officers turned trauma trainers / thespians
This week, our presenter Iulia is speaking to two ex-prison officers who've written a dark comedy about their experiences. Harriet and Ella signed up to a graduate scheme become front-line workers in a men's prison and women's prison respectively, and emerged hardened and, in their words, 'brutalised'.
Their play, Cell Outs, navigates the dissonance between humour and the harsh realities of prisons. We talk about difficult subjects such as trauma, but also about aubergines and the importance of laughter in dark times. The officers have emerged from this dark experience of being made to feel sub-human and forcing themselves to make others feel sub-human wiser, and offer an alarming and important insight into the state of our prison system, as it exists.
Their play will be touring the UK over the next few months, do look out for it coming to a city near you, soon. For last minute tickets this week, check out the link below for the performance at the Pleasance Theatre.
For tickets, go to https://www.glasshousetheatre.co.uk/
Social media: https://www.instagram.com/glasshousetheatre/?hl=en-gb
This episode was hosted by Iulia Teodorescu and produced by Trystan Kent.
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Welcome to this week's episode of the Rebel Justice Podcast. Last week, trust un spoke to Andrew Morris about imprisonment for public protection sentences. Feel free to have a listen if you haven't already. And now for this week's podcast, I'm Yulia and I'll be speaking to Ella and Harriet, two young women who trained as prison officers and have written a comedy about their experiences. Sellouts is making the rounds of many UK cities, including London, Edinburgh, and Birmingham. So check them out on glasshouse theater.co.uk for how you can get your tickets. Today we'll be speaking about the role of humor and performance in processing trauma. Please note that some of the topics discussed may cause distress and that there are brief mentions of self harm and suicide. So listen with Ka.
Speaker 2:So can you tell us a little bit about your show?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's lovely to be here. Thank you for having us. Um, so our show is a, a true story of mine and Ella's time working as prison officers. So we spend, um, just over two years working as prison offices in, in London prisons. And we've now written a play about that experience and wanted to explore some of the, the realities of the justice system, the things we saw, the experiences we had working in it. And yeah, I, I worked in a, in a male prison, um, and Ella worked in a female prison, so with women. So two quite different stories, but um, it kind of tracks our time spent there and brutalization the burnout, the hilarity, I think there's a lot of dark comedy in it, so yeah, hopefully it's funny, but it is, it's, it's our true story of our time there and we perform it as well. So it's a, it's kind of written and performed by ex frontline staff.
Speaker 2:That sounds incredible. So you said that you worked in a men's prison, Harriet, and you worked in a women's prison. So how did you both meet? Was there much crossover between the prisons?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we actually applied together. We vaguely knew each other at university and uh, had just finished humanities degrees and Harriet sent me an email with this graduate scheme,<laugh> that said, you know, a fully funded masters and the opportunity to work within prisons. And I think we were both, we were both very interested in frontline work anyway and were kind of considering other graduate schemes, potentially social work. Yeah, things with the social justice lean. This opportunity came up, Harriet sent it to me, it was the first year it was running. We both went, Yeah, right. Let's do it rather naively. And ended up literally finishing university doing six weeks of very speedy training. And by the September were plo plonked into the prison landings and well, yeah, the rest is history, I suppose.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. So what did it actually say on the, on the job ad on the Master's ad? Like how was it promoted to you?
Speaker 4:So it was, it was promoted as, as, as a frontline role, uh, that you'd have a lot of chance to develop your own ideas and be a leader within the criminal justice system and be a force for rehabilitation. Whether that was the reality is another thing. Fortunately the role of the officer leaves no time to do that. It barely left us time to do the, our masters to be honest. Cuz after 12 hours on the landing with people shut at you and you know, nearly getting assaulted, you don't really wanna come home and then read huge articles about prison reform. And so therefore, in terms of like putting in place your own rehabilitation initiatives, I mean you're so by now by that point<laugh>, so that would potentially be more the reality of what happened.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Wow, that sounds really, really difficult and intense. Um, what was the masters supposed to be in?
Speaker 5:It was initially advertised as a rehabilitation masters rehabilitation theory and leadership in a custodial setting was the full title. It put change, uh, to leadership and change management theory. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, So that was the masters that we studied. So we were doing, we were studying concepts of leadership and management within a custodial setting. So a lot of it was about like theories of authority and theories of power within prison and that environment. And you know, within our own master's thesis and dissertations, we were allowed a lot of flexibility. So I wrote about domestic violence programs and treatment for survivors and perpetrators and using arts in that context. And Ella, you wrote about beauty theater in prisons.
Speaker 4:I wrote about the, the current, um, initiatives for women survivors of domestic abuse within the prisons.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So we kind
Speaker 3:Of were, we, we
Speaker 5:Found our specialisms through that, through that study, but it was a very challenging process to be full time prison officers and part-time master students. And that, that was quite complicated I think when you are studying the environment that you are living through when it's quite traumatizing in a really intense environment. So yeah, it was, it was complicated in that regard. Definitely.
Speaker 2:Wow, that does sound like an incredibly difficult experience and it must have been, as you say, so hard to analyze what you are currently living through. So what led you to specialize in the areas that you did? Did you have many experiences of working with the prisoners on creative projects?
Speaker 3:I think we, I think both Ella and I, our background was very much in theater, both growing up and at university. And I think maybe long term we knew that it was something we really wanted to use as a tool. I think within the prison service as it stands, it was almost nonexistent. There's some, there's a couple of companies doing really incredible work, um, that both Ella and I were lucky enough to do placements with and work alongside a little bit. And we saw like the impact that those organizations have had, like clean break to name, drop clean break the incredible theater company and unlock drama both going into prisons and, and specializing in, in working with people who've had lived experience and they used theater as an amazing tool to support people to kind of process and heal. And so I think we both knew the impact it could have and, and especially now after writing the play, we've kind of experienced firsthand how healing it can be to process something traumatic. To, to kind of claim the story and to retell the story is really powerful. And I think actually for us, a big part of articulating what we saw that act of putting it into a show and sharing that story and talking to a lot of other people who've worked in the prisons in different capacities, speaking to lots of other officers from diverse backgrounds and kind of hearing them tell their stories and being able to share that with audiences we know like now, especially firsthand how important that can be. So I think that's always been there, that awareness. And I think one of the things you see the most working in prisons is, is how performative it is as an environment. We, we say this a lot, like how many roles people play. You know, people within living within prison, people working within prison adopt characters as a self-protection measure. Um, you don't wanna bring the vulnerable like true part of your identity in there because it's such a inhumane and abusive environment. And so people do perform these roles in characters. So when we have done work and theater work after our time as officers, we've really noticed that it's already happening. People take to the performative side of it really naturally because it's familiar to them putting on a mask is familiar. Like that's what people do every day just to get by. So it can be a space that lets them kind of take off that mask and maybe explore other roles and other identities. So yeah, I think we kind of really are like do believe in the power of theater. I think for a long time as officers we lost that<laugh>, I won't lie, working inside that environment. You also do think, I think these people maybe need jobs more than they need me to do a drama club with them. And that is still true, but I think we, we really are kind of passionate about that, the importance that that creative space can give people to heal. So yeah, that probably was there from, from even when we were studying the masters we were, we were already kind of exploring that idea and we're doing that a lot more now in our work.
Speaker 2:Wow. I mean that sounds really important, the work you were doing there and of course it, it must have been difficult confronting what may have felt like some very big issues in a kind of indirect way. How do you feel about having now left the justice system to work more broadly in the creative sector?
Speaker 4:I think it's taken us a long time to reframe our roles because when we initially left frontline work as prison officers, we felt a lot of guilt and a lot of shame for leaving that we couldn't hack it. But the reality is I don't think anyone should be made to hack that kind of job. It is the most brutal environment to work in and it shouldn't be like a sign of weakness that you can't do it because I don't think anyone can really do it. It's, it's very funny because we became so institutionalized when we were officers that these civilian staff, these cvs would come in with their bright ideas and I'd be like, Oh my God, can you please get off my landing? I've got a to run and I've got literally 60 women all needing different things and not just like toilet roll or a docks appointment, like needing really severe intervention and you are wanting me to unlock someone for a, a workshop. Amazing. And, and now I know that is just as important, right? You know, my logical, more calm brain. But when you're in that environment, it's just survival. You're literally just getting by. And that's what's so, so difficult with trying to implement any kind of initiative is because you are coming up with so many barriers and barriers that I now understand. Like, I understand when things get canceled because there's been, you know, lockdown. That's why. So I literally like hats off to people who have done been doing this activism work for 20 odd years or 30 years because you do get slightly disillusioned cuz as Harriet said, it's like they don't need dinner, they need, you know, proper therapy, they need their medication, they need jobs. And it's like, no, no, no, they're, they're basic requirements and everyone should also be given the opportunity to be able to be creative and, and have a safe environment and feel love and feel joy and, and it's just as important. But because you are literally in fight to flight every day, you begin to forget that. And that's why these prison environments are so zapped of and so drained of any sort of humanity or, or love or creativity. So I think we need to keep reminding ourselves. So no, no matter how hard the work is, it's so necessary and it's so important because they literally haven't, like, there is nothing at the moment like going on in prison. So let's be, let's be completely honest, there's people working so hard to try and get stuff in that the day to day they get to go to the gym and that's probably about it. And that's in, that's, you know, and that's in the female state, the male estate, they probably don't even get that when you're, you know, I'll let Harriet speak about that. And when they did get the opportunity to do something creative, it was like, it would make me so emotional because they were just seeing them be able to like have a bit of freedom to be like a human again. And to not just like be one in a system is just, it's just so, so important. And I think that's what keeps driving the inherit no matter how tired we get. And, uh, don't get me wrong, when we were officers we were very tired<laugh>.
Speaker 2:That's really inspiring to hear. What was your, what was your experience, Harriet, in terms of in the male male presence and creativity there day to day? Were there many opportunities for creativity? Did you get involved in leading any sessions?
Speaker 3:In my capacity as an officer, no. I couldn't envisage an environment where I could be both, where I could be both the, this absolutely wild figure of authority that, that role demands of you, the person who barges into cells and strip searches people and violates human rights in that way. And that, that is one of the demands of that role. The, the dual demand of that role is that you are also able to kind of support people through drug detoxes and be the person that is the first port of call for them. If they lose a family member on the outside, if they experience a recall, if a if something happens, you are their only port of call. So you are this, you are already this dual role. And I think when I was in that head space and trying to navigate that balance, the idea of then being vulnerable with the men that I worked with in the way that theater demands of you, that kind of exposing of yourself felt so far from possible<laugh>, which breaks my heart because I think actually it would be the most reformative kind of transformational experience if, if some of the officers on my landing that I worked with, including myself, could have exposed that kind of vulnerability to those men. Um, and especially in a gendered context because I think like I don't wanna perpetuate ideas of gender roles and I really disagree with them and I don't agree with gender as a concept, but that environment really believes in gender as a concept.<laugh> and hammers home those gender roles to such a degree that is hyper-masculine. So the idea of anyone exposing any kind of vulnerability, performing any role besides toxic male is quite unimaginable. Having said that, whilst I was an officer, I went to a different establishment where I didn't work as an officer and I was a new face and I went in in the capacity of a theater facilitator and I made work with, with men in prison there, they didn't know I was an officer. And that was quite important I think because their dynamic that that is created by that uniform is so negative and it's so, um, divisive and I think that's intentional in the structure of prison. I think that's one of the reasons that I don't fundamentally agree with it or that role is it meant that I kept it kind of quiet. I didn't, I didn't talk about that with them, but we did have some amazing experiences doing that. And they played, some of the men played prison officers in, in a piece of theater that they devised in a week. And that was quite, uh, revel for me to see them do that. I think that was, yeah, pretty kind of mind blowing. So I would've loved, I wish I had in my own prison been able to do that. And if that space existed, I think that would be a re-imagining of a prison space completely, which I would be very pro, but it, I can't, I can't quite picture that happening in this current environment that we have created in our prisons in the uk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like you've had to embody a massive range of personas and roles while still feeling quite confined in terms of, as you said, gender roles and power dynamics. So it's really interesting to hear about the ways in which you can kind of reclaim theater and performance in a kind of empowering way. And I think that's, that's so important that you've been able to unlock that in yourselves and you are working towards that in others. I think we'll come back to your point about the sort of gendered environment and the hyper-masculinity, but I wanted to first ask you about how you felt the process of institutionalization happened.
Speaker 4:I think what's quite funny and, and what the play is based on and and shows is this fool from me and Harriet being like, Yeah, we can bring in ideas, we can change this system to becoming so burnt out and brutalized that I honestly didn't even recognize us by the end prison is so dangerous because it honestly eradicates everyone's individuality and on prisoners it happens on such an extreme violent scale. Um, but also for the staff, I thought I would never become one of these people that laughed along with jokes that I didn't agree with. I'd never thought I'd be one of these people that was like, if we're being brutally honest, you know, someone would sub harm for the sixth time that day and that is the most horrific thing. They're in serious pain and serious need. And I'd be there like, oh really? Like again, oh, have we gotta deal with it? And that's of course not me, That's no one, you know, if you see someone in severe pain, you're gonna want to help and you're gonna wanna be there. But I was like, God, when am I clocking off? Like when, when do I get to go home? And when it got in the way of you going home, you are annoyed. That's how institutions you've become because you are also being treated like absolute crap. There's no support. You're so burn out, you are so traumatized because of the repeat trauma that you're seeing day in, day out, like the huge scales of self harm and, and suicide that you come into contact with. Yeah. You completely lose a sense of self and you literally just have to concentrate on on when you can go home. I think that was what was so, so scary. You think you're never gonna become, never gonna become what you sort of like hated at the beginning what you saw as like, Oh God, I'm gonna be an officer who did this. It was so naive because you can't, not for survival's sake, you can't not, you have to assimilate with staff. You have to get along with people because they're the ones that are protecting you. And if you don't, they won't run when there's alarm being sounded and you are the one being beaten up. So of course you laugh long with jokes, you don't. And so it's wild. You, you completely sacrifice every inch of your integrity, mold yourself into this role that you fundamentally d disagree with, thus trying to help people desperately and, and it, it it failed it really. Yeah. We didn't help ourselves.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I mean it's incredible that you, you were able to recognize that process because
Speaker 4:In sight<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker 4:A lot, a lot of, a lot of therapy. A lot of therapy and a lot of talking there. I don't think we realized it during what the play on picks is, um, are different trauma responses and, and how mightly gendered they were considering the estates we were working in and the difference in our, yeah. In our sacrificing of our humanity and becoming quite frankly, quite, quite horri people.<laugh>. No, we've done a lot, we've done a lot of healing, but um, the fact that we needed from two years of working in it, like can you imagine how much healing somebody who's serving, you know, seven years slash a life sentence is gonna need for living in there unimaginable.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. What's the longest period of time that a prison officer would normally work for? Because I'm assuming burnout is quite common.
Speaker 3:Oh, burnout's very common. It's very common I think. But, but I mean people join the job when they're 18 and stay and it's all retirement. I mean that's not like unheard of. And I think when we talk about institutionalization, you know, there are some terrifying statistics about prison officers. The danger scales of the job are also linked with like post the job, like leaving. Um, because the effect and the impact of institutionalization does mean that you really struggle to function outside of that role. Like you don't, it's very difficult to reintegrate with society and I think a lot of staff upon retirement, a lot of it catches up to them. And actually, like it's talked about amongst staff, I remember those conversations about what happened to so and so after they left. And like drinking, spiraling out of control and like tragic losses of life and you know, suicide rates amongst staff is, is is really high and it's scary and you know, I think there is so much unprocessed around that and it's, and that's the thing that like what Ella was speaking to there about what we thought of ourselves and who we thought we would be in that environment is absolutely true of. I would vote for 99% of the staff that I met, maybe 99.9. I mean we love in the media to talk about these evil officers who come in and all the corruption levels. And I think actually like for me, the staff force is made up of exactly what we became people who've started out with these incredible compassionate reasons and, and this care and, and a lot of the time firsthand experience themselves of the communities that end up in prison and that level of compassion is, is eroded. Um, and I think I definitely went in thinking I would be very separate from these officers and now I completely understand how you become what you become in that environment. We talk about the inhumanity of that space, like it is so inhuman for the people incarcerated and that leeches out. And I think for officers to be able to do what's demanded of them, they view prisoners as inhuman and for the system to do what what it wants to, to the staff, it views the staff as inhuman, like everyone is treated as a cog in that machine. So I think, um, that institutionalization, that length of service that some people go through 25 years of working there, we had, we, we both knew lots of people who had worked there for that amount of time and there are just parts of themselves that, that they have shut off. And, and some of them can talk about that. You know, I had some really insightful conversations with those members of staff and a lot of it went into our show. We had, we had some fantastic interviewees whose verbatim interviews we use in the show. So you hear their actual voices, um, played and, and you know, they shared with us some stuff that that was, was really insightful and so reflective and you know, they've been in that system for a really long time and they can see it, but they can't always leave it. I think that's, that's something a lot of officers talk about is how you break up with being an officer and what the world looks like if you, if you haven't got that role and it's really complicated, it's really difficult. Like we went through the process on a micro level, both of us. I think I still have moments where I miss<laugh> that world and I miss the people in it that I met and I miss the men and I miss the other staff and so much of my rush brain says, that makes no sense. You know, you had the worst time<laugh>. Um, but but you do, you you can't let go of something that's shaped you quite as much as it has. It's really difficult to let go of that.
Speaker 2:That's a really interesting point. It's not something I've ever really considered, especially given all of the trauma that you both talk about that I I guess that completely makes sense. It's it's a toxic relationship in a way, isn't it? If you don't mind me. Yes. Making that assumption.
Speaker 4:No, that's exactly it. You're trauma bonded<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about what you maybe enjoy is too strong a word, but what you found resonated with you or what you miss about life as a prison officer?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I I I think it might be very different for me, but given that the environments are so, so vastly different that they are not even really comparable, I think what is maybe like most shocking and what I did not realize going in is, um, you know, you get taught during officer's training to have these boundaries constantly about these boundaries and these barriers you have to have between yourself and prisoners. Honestly, in the female estate it's near on impossible. It's the most intimate environment. Like physically the female estate is smaller emotionally, everything is, is is so intimate because you see these women, you know, they're, you, you are the ones giving them their tampons, you know, when they're all on their period, you know, when they're having a bad day, you know, when their kids getting taken, they're, you are like, they're the ones that are then coming and crying on your shoulder. They also know when you are having a attack, they're able to see, they're able to be like, I'll miss what's going on. Like, so it's incredibly hard when you, you know, the ins and outs of these women you spend every day with them, more time you spend with them than your own family and your own friends to then have the sort of cognitive dissonance, which is basically what you have to have to then be a figure of authority. And I think we both go as far as saying as and abuse. Cause you are having to treat them as less than human and it's really, really weird and screwed up when you become a figure of authority. But you are also the one knocking them in a tiny, tiny cage every night. And that relationship is so warped. You have to be both. Yeah, both this figure of love and care and in the female estate you, you do, there's no, like, you can't, not you, you can't, you can't be shut off like you do really have to be, provide emotional support. And I think I did not realize the, the scale and the toll that would take on me and the workforce because you are having to support these women through the most horrific things and they're so, so they're literally the most strong and incredible women that I've ever met. And I think that's, as much as that was the part that took its biggest toll on me and probably led to my own like, you know, the mice, uh, for not wanting to be dramatic<laugh>. Um, it was also the podcast<laugh>, um, I, I think I love most and the, you ju you have a laugh because you know each other's through and through like you have a laugh with the women. You are able to share stories. They, they talk so much to you about their lives and you can have a na you can sit and have a little coffee in in the cells with them and and and chat about their lives because there's nothing else going on. Like that's really the reality is a lot of the job and I think people don't realize is talking and the difficulty is, is you're sharing stories constantly but it's not really sharing. You're just doing the listening because you can't share any personal information. So it's this sort of one way bonding where they then become rely on you for, you know, 24 7 emotional care. And, but I think that the, the bit I enjoyed most was yeah, meeting God some of the most resilient women I've ever met and some of the most resilient staff. And you have to have a sense of humor and I think this is why how me and Harriet have written a comedy because you have like, it's one of those things you will literally just cry if you don't laugh. So having a bit of a laugh<laugh> of the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah and humor was definitely something I'm gonna ask you more about later cause I think it's such a, such a brilliant angle and
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a big old, big old strong coping mechanism.<laugh>,
Speaker 2:What about you Harriet? How did you find Yeah,
Speaker 3:It is different. That's so funny. I was listening to your aunt there and I was like, when is she gonna go to the bit that she enjoyed? Cause this is all sounding terrible<laugh>, but though I, we do always have to preface it with that kind of thing, don't we? The complications of it. But I, it's very different in the male estate. It's also very similar in the level of like the domestic, like every day mundane, domestic life of that environment. Like you do literally live together. So if you are being raging and strict and authoritarian all the time, you know, you'd have a heart attack within six months, your body couldn't take that. So there was a lot of hilarity. I mean the amount of like, the amount of stories that we have from, from that time, it is bonkers and you do build relationships. Like there was somebody on my landing who they were there for nearly all the two years that I was there. So I knew them well and, and like Ella said, they will pick up on you as much as you'll pick up on them in terms of mood. And he could see I was having a really stressful day and he used to work in the farms and gardens of the, of the prison. So he would go off to these um, amazing like, uh, poly tunnels where they would grow loads of the food that we would then be using in the prison. And um, he just brought back this, this huge ogen that that looked like it had a bum. It looked like it had a bum crack. And he brought it back to show me because he was like, I saw your face this morning. Uh, and I just, I felt like you needed to see this ogen<laugh>. I was like, you're absolutely right. I did need to see this ogen, I'm so glad you brought this o machine back to the landing. It went in the office in the like window. Everyone would see the O machine every day, you know, and it's, it's things like that that I don't think I would ever have pictured my life, including when I, when I, when we started this. I don't think that's something that anyone who hasn't been in that environment can understand. I think anybody who has been in that environment would hear that story and have like 25,000 other versions of it to share. Like everybody I know who's come into contact has those little moments and they really stick out to you because it's so gray and it's so bleak. But there is something about humans that you learn in that world that like they will find a way to find little glimpses of, I mean joy might be too strong, but ob jeans that look like bums at the bare minimum, we're gonna find a couple of those and it's gonna be the thing that gets you through the week. That's really important. And like Ella said, it's at the end of the day, the people are like, who we make this show for? They're why we do it. They're why we create the work. The people that we met in there, they were kind of, yeah, fully life changing. And I think the, the humor and the, the camaraderie people talk about it has two sides to that coin. There's a lot of toxicity around it and I don't deny that at all. But there is also a lot of like fundamental survival through hope and trying to find humor. And I think that's pretty fundamental. And and that's, that's a big part of the show definitely is, is is the bits that, you know, we perform it sometimes to a mixture of officers and staff and people with no understanding of the prison and the laughs of are in very different places.<laugh>, you get, you can hear who is<laugh>, who is from what background, based on what they will laugh at, which is quite joyful for us, I think to maybe bridge that gap a little bit and kinda get that, get that dialogue going.
Speaker 2:<laugh>, I mean thank you so much for sharing that story about the ogen that<laugh> in itself that is the best sales pitch you could have possibly given for your show.
Speaker 3:That's not even in the show, that didn't even make it in the show, that story. So you, there's, there's, there's an hour and 20 minutes more of those<laugh> we had to cut that one.
Speaker 2:Wow. Better than an obje. How does that happen? Well I guess it makes sense to talk about humor then. What role do you think humor has for you in this healing journey and just in terms of approaching issues around injustice in the justice system and activism and getting people to engage, engage with the issues that you talk about in the play.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean humor was our biggest coping mechanism. It is for prisoners, it is for prison officers. I honestly do think that like most prison officers should have their own standup show because they are genuinely, they've got the gift of the gab and you have to have the gift of the gap cuz that's how you deescalate situations. Like you've got to be able to make people laugh and just have a bit of humor and a bit of like humanness to you. So when me and Harriet started doing this, writing this show and, and talking about how new theater and it all did start off like honestly just like us exchanging the most insane, ridiculously funny stories to the point where we'd be like weeping, nearly wetting ourselves. Um, and I think honestly, yeah, the prison, the prison service is just the mostly ridiculous like comedic place. And I think what is so insane is, is the two sides of the coin. The fact that it's the most harrowing, dark, terrifying, dehumanizing environment ever, but then also the most ridiculously clownish at the same time. And you flip between having a laugh with someone, having a joke with someone, and then literally within five minutes you're going and wrapping someone up and, and and nearly getting punched in the face. So how does your brain flip between those two? I think it was, it was massively a coping mechanism for us. So we utilize that and I think we've had a lot of like humorous tears throughout this process, but it's also allowed us to actually do the real work and have some real, some real tears because ultimately we were both very, very, very repressed and we could, we had to laugh for ourselves. So I think what took a long time was us to be able to feel empathy for ourselves and to be like, oh no, this was a bad thing that you, that you know, that you went through and, and it is a horrific environment and you don't always have to laugh at things. And that was what took longer. I think the, the comedy of it and the the laughs kind of came more naturally. Mm,
Speaker 3:Definitely. And I think also there's something in the, in the structure of the show that we, we wanted to create that I, I think comedy and humor can be a really powerful equalizer. I think it can invite people in to something that they maybe wouldn't understand or be able to feel like they could access otherwise. And you know, we start the show very much laughing at ourselves, like laughing at we're the butt of the joke and that's always gonna be that, you know, we're never gonna make other people the butt of the joke when we are writing a show. But it's really important that audiences are like invited in through that comedy and it feels accessible to everybody to kind of partake in that. And I think when you think about prison and you talk about prison, people aren't feeling like it's something that it they're gonna laugh about. And I think it's important that that's examined. Like I, I think it's important to examine that and why we rely on humor in that way and what that does to us as people, but also like how it can, you know, when you talk about our activist work and activism and engaging people actually looking at the ridiculousness of a prison service that the absolutely laughable idea that it's in any way a solution is also important. Like there is something for me that is absolutely outrageous about that concept<laugh>. So, and I think it's, it's at a point where, you know, you need to find ways in to the conversation and like we start by making, like letting people laugh at us and then as the show goes on, you see what we are, we start laughing at in our journey to brutalization and audiences are kind of pulled up short and like, Oh I actually don't wanna laugh with you at this anymore, but I've kind of been complicit for a while. And that was the feeling I think we had moving through the system was like going in and, and eventually becoming very complicit with stuff. Um, and laughing along and what that actually means in terms of your integrity as an individual and, and you know, how you are actually standing up and trying to change something. So it's, it's a complicated tool comedy in that regard. I think we're like very much feeling our way through it and, and working it out. But um, yeah I think to not have it in the show would be to massively misrepresent the fuel of the prison service<laugh>. Um, so it was really like it was gonna be fundamental always I think.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it's also very interesting in terms of uh, how quickly everything is normalized in humor and um, we wanted to bring the audience along on that journey and for them to catch themselves laughing and then question as to why they're laughing at that. They should not be laughing at that. And I think even with our director, we tell stories at the beginning and she'd be like, that's not, that's not funny. Like wow, that's really, that's really disturbing. And then by the end of the rehearsal process, my god, she was cackling away cuz how quickly you become normalized through humor. Um, so that was, it's been a bit of a social experiment to be honest,
Speaker 2:How humans function<laugh>. Wow. I mean it sounds like you deal with it in a very thought provoking way and I can't wait to see it myself next week. I wanted to just ask you a bit about how your experiences have driven and inspired your activism and what you are doing now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, so I think we, we realized potentially whilst working as officers actually that, that we both felt quite strongly about defunding and, and abolition within the prison sector, which is quite complicated when you're working in it and you don't agree with your own job existing. And I think we are both very conscious that it's, it's can be quite a divisive topic and people can find it quite difficult to access and it's taken us a long time to fully process where we stand and the idea of defunding and moving away from that system, but the kind of networks of reformers and the people that we are now like working alongside and really inspired by. I think a lot of the strategy in the movements in this, in this area are going towards that, that aim. I think there's a, there's a sense that a lot of other approaches are kind of a bandaid over a bullet wound sort of thing. So we, our focus is on how frontline voices and people with lived experience, how central that needs to be to all of the discussions about abolition, about criminal justice reform and all, its all its different guises and we are really passionate and interested in starting those dialogues that can maybe potentially be divisive normally. I think our background and intersection of being from both a theater, social justice warrior activist standpoint and having been a part of the institution part of the problem arguably worked in that frontline capacity, that's where we wanna sit in between and bring together those groups. So as Glasshouse Theater we now run workshops, um, we run workshops with kind of lots of different groups. So we're doing some in schools with young people exploring ideas around what they think prison is, it's realities, it's basis, it's problems. We're also doing it with prison officers in, in prisons. So we are going back in and um, talking to staff about burnout and about brutalization, what that means, what that looks like, opening up dialogues that we didn't see present when we were working there from our perspective as having been in that role. We're also looking to do it with, with families of people in prison to start building using our theater background and our theater sort of foundation to create a space for healing for people who've come into contact with that system. Cuz we're very conscious that the idea of just abolition is, is kind of scary and actually there are so many people who've been wounded by that institution who deserve spaces to heal and be heard. And so we wanna be a part of that if we can. Um, so the play is kind of a thread in amongst this that we are using to create dialogue, you know, in some of our shows, shows we're doing in Scotland later this year, but we're gonna be having like postshow q and as, um, to kind of build that space where people can ask questions. So yeah, we are wanting to work towards healthier, more compassionate conversations and using our experiences to do that and hopefully platforming and championing other people's experiences too. Like we would love to work with as many other people who have had different experiences to us, different lived experiences to us to be championed and represented and involved in the organization as well. So that's where we are sort of heading now.
Speaker 4:It it's taken, yeah, it has taken us a while. Um, and I think we both, it's very easy to get overwhelmed on a macro level with the prison state, especially when we're like, you know, living within a society whether to government are like, we're gonna build 20,000 new prison places within the next five to 10 years and it's like there's what, 4 billion pounds I think of funding going into building new prison places. And so it seems that the, the, the issue is only getting worse on a macro level. It's very, very easy to get overwhelmed and to see abolition as, as this thing that is never gonna happen. So I think what me and Harriet sometimes do is we take a step back and we um, we work on a micro level and, and to try and initiate those compassionate and emotionally informed conversations and discussions cause that's where it starts. That's also how you change your macro level is engaging policy makers who have probably never stepped foot in a prison who for a fact we've met quite of, you have never stepped foot in a prison to just be like, spend time, just spend time in them to understand them because people who are, I honestly would go as far as saying like people who are propri state and co punishment have never spent a prolonged period of time within a prison or with anyone with lived experience. So I think it's, it's just what our activism is, is really angling towards is just starting those discussions and bringing together like demographics, bringing them within prisons, asking them to unpick these discussions. Having workshops, having safe spaces where policy makers can, can discuss with officers about the realities or with prisoners. I think that's where it begins because cuz the problem is only growing
Speaker 3:And the narrative is very black and white. That's the thing I think we've seen fair, we we are comfortable now inhabiting gray areas. I think that's where people need to get a lot comfier is being in the nuance in the gray area and that it's not like a really straightforward black and white answer. That there's not like a single solution. There's not like a single problem, it's not a black and white situation. But I think the dialogue around it currently in the media society amongst in the pub with family and friends, people have really strong black and white opinions about something that arguably because of how it's set up is one of the most secretive public sectors and it's people have opinions based on absolutely nothing<laugh>. Um, and I think finding nuance and gray area and being comfortable in that is where I think we, we really wanna focus a lot of our time and try and get people kind of more comfortable and easy in that space.
Speaker 2:Thank you both so much for talking to us about your experiences. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences and talking to us about the gray areas, the nuance, the humor and your show. So if we want to come and watch Sellouts, uh, how do we do that?
Speaker 3:Well, we have got a one night only London show, which is coming out on Friday the 28th of October. So very soon. And it is at the Pleasants main house in Islington in London at 8:00 PM You can get tickets on the Pleasants Theaters website. You can also see upcoming dates around the uk. So we are coming to Edinburgh to the Traverse Theater at the end of November. We'll be there for three nights and we've got an upcoming date in Oxford in the new year. We're hoping to add more theaters to the tour as well. So we will be looking at coming to a couple of other cities around the uk If you're listening to this and you think we'd love to get sat in our city in our venue, then get in touch. But you can find out all other upcoming tour dates on our social media or on our website, which is Glass House Theater.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 6:Thank you. It's been an absolute joy.
Speaker 1:And that's all we've got time for today. If you'd like to support Sellouts head to glasshouse theater.co uk. You can also follow Harriet and Ella on Twitter at glasshouse t h and on Instagram at Glasshouse Theater. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed and would like to seek help, there are many organizations which offer support, including counseling directory.co.uk. Thank you so much for listening and for supporting the Rebel Justice podcast. Awesome, Spotify. And keep an eye out for our next episodes, which will be coming out soon.