Apples in Winter- The Story of the Mother of a Murderer and her Apple Pie

Monday 10 October 2022 marks the 20th anniversary of the International End the Death Penalty Day. We speak to theatre director Claire Parker and actress Edie Campbell  about Apples in Winter, by Jennifer Fawcett  - a one woman play  premiering in London this week at  Playground Theatre in West London. This award winning play gives a voice to the mother of a violent offender who is on death row and asks for his mother’s apple pie, as his request for his last meal.

The subjects this ambitious and poignant play covers are difficult and topical - forgiveness, trauma, unconditional love and how justice intersects women’s lives, at all ends of the spectrum.

For tickets please go to

Https//:theplaygroundtheatre.london/

For more on this production:

Https://www.lynchpintheatre.com/applesinwinter

On Twitter and Facebook: @LynchPinTheatre 
On Instagram search @lynchpin_theatre

For more information and links about ending the death penalty :
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/death-penalty/
https://youtu.be/K7Xl5o7s70o
https://m4bl.org/policy-platforms/end-death-penalty/

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Chapters

• 2:04 Apples in Winter - a play
• 4:19 The Story
• 6:01 Challenges in Directing this play?
• 7:51 How to Connect to the Mother and Son as an Actor
• 10:44 What to Take away from the play
• 14:25 Thoughts on Death Penalty
• 16:07 Response So Far

Transcript

Speakers:
HOST : Madalena Alberto
Claire Parker  Director Lynchpin Theatre
Edie Campbell - Actress



Madalena Alberto:
Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice Podcast. The only platform by and for women with lived the experience of the justice system. This week marks the 20th anniversary of the International End the Death Penalty Day. I am delighted to introduce Director to Claire Parker, and actress Edie Campel, to talk about Apples in Winter by Jennifer Fawcett, a one woman show premiering in London this week at the Playground Theater in West London. This award winning play gives a voice to the mother of a violent offender who is on death row and asks for his mother's apple pie as his request for his last meal. The subjects this ambitious and poignant play covers are difficult and topical - forgiveness, trauma, unconditional love, and how justice intersects women's lives. Delving into the emotions felt by the hidden victims of violent crime. Edia  Camopbell plays Miriam, the mother of a convicted killer who has been sentenced to death.

That play focuses on the hidden victims, the families of those who are convicted, who are forgotten and neglected in the process of justice. In Apples in Winter, we glimpse a rare insight of their experiences in how they manage the seismic  effect of having a loved one in prison, convicted of a heinous crime. When confronted with the bleak reality and helplessness they face, families feel the shame and the stigma felt by those left behind outside the prison gates.
A  review by a prison volunteer that declares this display has the potential to be a catalyst for change. So Claire and Edie, thank you so much for having this time to talk to us. If you could tell us a little bit about the background of the play and how you became involved with it. So maybe Claire, if we can start with you?

Clare Parker Director(01:54):
Yes. Although my involvement began with Edie because Edie asked me if I would direct, so it was Ed that found the play. So I'll let Ed if that's okay. 

Edie Campbell: 
I was in Iowa City where the play had just been done, but I had missed it. And I was walking outta the library when a, a friend was walking in and she said, "I've just seen this play and Lynchpin has to do it and you have to play Miriam." So I was like, "Uh, whoa, Okay, great. Sounds amazing." So she then put me in touch with the author Jennifer for it, the playwright, uh, who sent me the script. I read it and thought, Yes, this is an incredible piece of theater. It's so beautifully, tightly written, it's very moving. It's very powerful. We have to find a way to do it. So we started with three public rehearsed readings in 2019 and then one in 2020 for an invited audience of people involved in criminal justice cuz we knew if we wanted to do it, if we were going to do it, we wanted post show discussions to give the audience the opportunity to respond to what they've seen, to share their stories held by people who work in this field.
 (03:13):
And then we were in negotiations with the Playground Theater and then Covid hit. So everything went on a hiatus for almost two years. And now here we are finally opening the play on Wednesday and Jennifer  Fawcett  is coming over from New York to be here for the UK premier and to do one of the post show discussions. And we are thrilled, excited. 

Claire Parker:
 And I will say one thing about the poster discussions is from doing those rehearse readings that we realized at the end the audience couldn't move and that we couldn't just like turf them onto the streets. So we, the first q and a was a spontaneous one with, with with us. I said, "Well, let's just talk about this," because people couldn't seem to get up from their seats. And , and we realized that everybody had something to say or something to ask that it opens, It's a play that opens a discussion, which then is quite wide. So that's why we've got this whole schedule of, of speakers or participants.

Madalena Alberto (04:12):
Amazing. Claire, do you mind just talking us through a little bit about the story of the play? For the listeners who don't know?

Claire Parker: (04:20):
The story is of ,a mother of a monster and her son is on death row. You are really good at this actually, but on her son is on death row and has been there for 22 years. So this is a violent crime that happened 22 years ago. So his last request is that his mother baking an apple pie. So the mother has to come into the kitchen in the prison and bake him an apple pie. And it's during the actor actually baking the apple pie that she, then the story unfolds and, and she explains about her life really, I suppose. And it, we, we begin to understand the journey that she's been on and what's happening. And it's pretty powerful 

Edie Campbell: cause she's trying to make sense of what happened 22 years ago, what happened to her lovely little boy and to her own life and keeps trying to tell us the truth about what happened that night and can't quite, can't quite. And then finally at the end, she's able to just give us what happened. And that is a very cathartic process for her to be able to speak the truth and to be heard and witnessed. Yeah. In doing so,

Madalena Alberto:(05:35):
I can imagine how powerful it is for the audience cuz just by you describing it to me, <laugh>, I had a big sensation on my chest just by hearing it. Um, Claire, was it difficult for you or where were the challenges for you to direct this from a mother's perspective? And how do you feel how the mother feels about her son? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of difficulty there to, to connect to all that.

Claire Parker: (06:01):
Yes. But I think the nature of a mother's unconditional love for her children is complex. And I think what we see is a, a mother who is pushed to the absolute limit to to hold all of that together, to hold those cherished memories and also his violent act. So to hold all of that in one heart, I think that we are all often challenged as parents or just even as adults, but I think we are watching somebody who's pushed to the limits. So I didn't feel it wasn't difficult. I think, well, we've said this, there, there, but the grace of God go I, so it's, it's not even just in terms of being a mother, but just in how far we are pushed to love those people that we love when they do things that we can't control or that push us to the limits.
So I don't think it was difficult. I think it was an exciting process of, of really looking at that. And I think the writers already written for us an an amazing piece. It's brilliantly crafted. So it starts there and then there's the vision of that, and then there's exploring with the actor and it was an amazing process. And I think just getting to all those layers, those the multi-layers of love and unconditional love and, and the idea of justice and forgiveness and all of those issues, they just, it just was an amazing process, wasn't it? It just, um, it wasn't difficult. It was incredible. <laugh>

Madalena(07:37):
Wow. Thank you. Edie, as an actor, how did you relate to the role this mother in a very tragic situation and how did you feel about the man who committed this violent murder?

Edie Campbell:(07:52):
Good questions. Um, I think I related to Miriam's heart. So I am not a mother myself by have nieces and nephews and other children in my life. And I suppose acting is in, is entering into someone else's life whether or not you've actually had those experiences. So the empathy that I feel for Miriam includes not judging her, loving her, in fact, falling in love with her as a human being, but also not wanting to have any judgment come across in my performance. So to not make it easy for the audience to go, "Oh, well, no wonder she's like that. No wonder he did that." No one, you know, and "she's over there. I could never be in her shoes." We want her to be so close to us that, as Claire said there, but for grace, go, I in a heartbeat, life can change. And how do I feel about her son? I think my emotions about who are as complicated as Miriams. So there's love, there's fear, there's incomprehension, there's denial, there's so many questions about why and how and what went wrong and what did I do, what did Miriam do? What's my fault, what's my responsibility? What isn't? How to untangle that is really hard. And it, it's, those questions continue throughout the, the play she grapples to, to understand what happened, but also to come to some kind of not conclusion, Acceptance. Acceptance for herself.

Madalena (09:37):
Yeah, I guess it's a lifetime process, isn't it?

Claire Parker (09:42):
There's a line in the play where she said, Miriam says, uh, "22 years is a long time, enough time for, for everything to be real and become unreal and be real again." So, and that's where we go in the journey and the play is she gets to the, the reality and then she flips back to the memories and she, it, it's, it's to what could have happened. Sorry, what?

Edie Parker:
Yes. If only, if only then we wouldn't be here. If that had, if I had, if he had over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. 

Claire Parker: 
Which is a form of insanity in a way.

Madalena (10:13):
I can't imagine being in her shoes at all. So it's, it's a very powerful story. And like to just see someone, like you were saying you're not a mother, but I guess we can always relate to the sense of vulnerability, unpredictability, connection and what you mentioned so many times, the love that you'll have regardless of what, uh, someone that is close to you have done. So what do you feel like the message of the play is? And what would you like people to take away from it?

Claire Parker:  (10:44):
So I think what Lynchpin does and why this was a great fit for us, this play is to, it's to open a discussion. So it's, it's less about the message than creating a space where we can look at something and reflect. And for us it is often seldom heard voices. So this is the mother of a monster is not someone you often hear from. So to actually first of all, let that voice be heard and then to open that up. And as Edie said, we try to make her disarm, um, the the character of Miriam so that there's the least judgment possible. Then you are then putting that into the lap of the audience, into their, what do they, they they're with their own judgment and their own sensitivities. So you're opening up a, a safe space where you can look at a very difficult issue and reflect upon it.
(11:37):
And I think that doing the discussions afterwards as well means that we'll have many different points of view. There's many different types of speakers, some with lived experience mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's, for us, it's asking that question and opening up that space. And that's what theater does best in, in a safe way so that everybody can talk about it. I think, I don't know if I answered your question, if there's a message, it's to reflect and to find compassion. So the more we hear these voices that we don't often think about or we don't reflect on, if we can find compassion, then while there's room for healing and there's room for discussion, there's room for going forward.

Madalena (12:20):
While we don't have the writer here at Jennifer Fawcett, but I wonder because you probably have worked closely to her, this idea of the perspective of the, the people who have been affected, the families of, of the victims. It's, it's very interesting. And do you know if Jennifer, where Jennifer came up with this idea, do you know if she had a, anyone close to her going through something like this?

Claire Parker: (12:45):
Uh, no, I don't believe so. It came from, um, she, there's a video actually, which you can find on our Apples in Winter page on our website where she talks about the genesis of the play. So you could have a look at that and it's in, you can then quote from her words because that's out there. But she talked about the rituals around food. I think there was a drama company, look, they were looking for rituals around food and she had this thought, what if a a ritual around food was also part of a darker ritual. I think if I'm, I'm not, I'm paraphrasing it's not exactly what she said, but, so then that's how she came up with this idea. And I, I think she was pregnant at the time with her first child, so if you watch that video, you, you, she explains very well where that came from. 

Edie Campbell:
But yeah, she talks about food, preparing food for somebody is such a loving act. It's love in action, basically nourishment and, and nourishing and nurturing. Nurturing and, and what if that gets turned on its head? And in doing so, you are taking part in another ritual, which is execution, which is something horrendous and the antithesis of love and nurturing.

Madalena(13:57):
Yeah. Wow.

Edie Campbell: (13:58):
She won the Smith Prize for Political Theater with this play.

Madalena: (14:03):
That is wonderful. October 10th, it's the international and the death penalty day. If you could share some thoughts about the death penalty, if you ever considered, you know, what alternatives there can be to the death penalty, especially since doing this play. If there's any insights that you have that you'd like to share.

Clare Parker: (14:24):
Well, I'm happy to speak, I mean, I don't know that we have any, or I don't have any insights other than, I mean, what we do is theorists to open this up and I, of course I have my own personal beliefs, but this is, this is more about posing a question to the collective and the responsibility of the collective. And I think that a lot of, uh, what Lynchpin Theater has done and what would be interesting I think to us is, is about compassion sharing, raising awareness, understanding around these issues. Rather than that we would say, be political about it and say either or. But you know, for me it's about restorative justice. And I think if we were to, if we were to explore in the way that we can do safely in theater, but generally restorative justice and that knowing that what leads to these desperate acts, what is society, how and why has society failed these people that are so broken that they, they get to this point in the first place. And if you look at it from a trauma informed sort of view, which is all about really for us, that our role in raising awareness of trauma informed violence or addiction or whatever it is, is um, is this, is finding the compassion, restorative justice and healing through that route, through sharing these stories.

Madalena(15:51):
I'm sure you'll have a lot of feedback now in your run at the Playground Theater, but through the, the readings that you've done already, did you have anyone related to the justice system who have come to see and have given you any, any feedback?


Edie Campbell:(16:07):
Yes. I, you may be thinking of, of something different, so chip in,  but I'm thinking of, um, several people who work in prison and said that the, the play captures the inhumanity and the unnaturalness of that, of prison as an, as an institution, as a place to be - personal responses. So one person who saw it has very dear friends whose son is an addict. And so for him that was what spoke to him about the, the play, you know, so we all bring, as an audience always whatever kind of art we are responding to, we bring our own lived experience with us and it will touch us in those places. So different places for each person potentially.

Claire Parker:
 I think when, um, Ed first asked me to direct, I had to take a little moment after I'd read it to, to to see whether I would personally be triggered, in which case I didn't wanna put myself through it because I have, uh, two sons, they've grown up now.
One of them was a difficult teenager and, and I, I did really have to check whether I would personally be triggered before I took it on. But actually it's, it feels like such an amazing project to share. And it's something about it is uplifting in the, in Miriam's journey and the fact that we do need to have more compassion and, and that if I have those feelings that I couldn't even face about my sons but we can safely face, then I think that's a really, really beneficial thing to do. And to be able, a gift to be able to give in away. 

Edie Campbell:
The other thing that's been hugely encouraging is the response we've had from people that we've contacted who work in criminal justice. They don't know us, they've never heard of the play, but their response has been immediate to say, "Yes, we'll come and take part in a post show discussion because it seems so important."
Yeah. And relevant. So they are giving up their time, they're traveling from all different parts of the UK to come and, and be with us. And on October the 10th we have Paul Bridges from Amnesty who five years ago set up the Amnesty the UK against the death penalty kind of, um, section area <laugh>. Cool. And then human rights artists, Rick Remain, who is going to be with us that night as well and has worked with Amnesty previously and beautiful, beautiful searing artwork. A lot about containment and refugees and political conflict. 

Claire Parker:
Yes. And the arts. Yeah. So there's so many different angles with all of these different people that are coming. There's like two a night apart from the first night. And I think by the end of it, we have heard so many different angles. And that's the point is to open a space where everybody can contribute. And I don't know that there are solutions or answers, but you are certainly closer if you can at least open that space and start to see those that we have othered for so long.

Edie Parker:
 And there's so much division in the world right now and othering to see, realize we are not that separate. We're not different. 

Claire Parker
Yeah. The more we can break down them and us. Yes. The more that's broken down, the better the collective, the better the health of the collective. So that's, you know,
That's Lynchpin in it. Yeah. <laugh>.

Madalena(19:39):
And this concludes our podcast for today. Thank you so much Claire and Edie for talking to me about this powerful production we wish you every success and courage. Apple's in Winter runs at the Playground Theater Latimer  Road, West London from the 5th to the 15th of October. Tickets are available at the website, the Playground theater.london.
 For more information on ending the death penalty, check out the links on our description. And for more insight about the way the justice system affects women, please check out our website, theviewmag.org.uk and our social media accounts on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter. You can also subscribe to our quarterly digital magazine for just £20 . Thank you for listening.