Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice

Episode 27: Who's Judging Jimmy? A conversation with Ireland's leading trauma and addiction counsellor Jimmy Judge

August 03, 2022 Rebel Justice - The View Magazine Season 1 Episode 27
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice
Episode 27: Who's Judging Jimmy? A conversation with Ireland's leading trauma and addiction counsellor Jimmy Judge
Rebel Justice - changing the way you see justice +
Become a supporter of the show!
Starting at $3/month
Support
Show Notes Transcript

This week we bring you someone at the  forefront of talk therapy for the most disenfranchised communities in Ireland: Jimmy Judge. Jimmy started in the 80s as an addiction counsellor. He then went on to work with the Traveller Community and specialises in trauma counselling and also identifying abuse in institutional settings, and in relationships where it would be easy to exploit a power imbalance.

Click here to donate to The View:  


Support the show

For more unmissable content from The View sign up here

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice Podcast. Here we bring you the experiences of people at the front lines of justice, mental health, and creativity. Women with lived experience tell their stories, and we set about to looking for less oppressive ways to bring in justice system that is fit for everyone, that serves everyone. We invite people whose ideas are different. We are invested in building a better world. Judges are using prisons as dumping grounds and as places that can get psychological assessments for mental health treatment. But why can't these be done in the community? This week, we bring you someone at the forefront of talk therapy for the most disenfranchised communities in Ireland. Jimmy Judge Jimmy started in the eighties as an addiction counselor. He then went on to work with a traveler community and specializes in trauma counseling and also identifying abuse in institutional settings and in relationships where it would be easy to exploit a power imbalance.

Speaker 2:

Jimmy, it's such a privilege to have you with us for a chat. First, we just like to know a little bit about yourself. If you could tell us about your own life and what was it growing up on Dublin's North side.

Speaker 3:

Oh, okay. Uh, hi Alene. I'd love you to be on the podcast with you. I've heard some of the podcasts and, uh, love, listen to them and your interview styles. I said, But for me, I suppose we are always Northside kebar. I don't know if you know Dublin Madelina, uh, you know, Roddy Dole, the writer, Rod Dole wrote the commitments, the Snapper. That's where they were all made there. So we were kind of there in the seventies, and then Ku Luck and then B on for me. And then we kind of splintered off to different places. So it was pretty much in the seventies that I kind of grew up there. So everybody was poor. There was a recession on, you know, that kind of way. Um, you mean as a teenager, what we were taught as working class kids was, and there's nothing wrong with getting it yet a trade, you know, you wouldn't aspire to be anything else. You get a trade. Uh, the women would maybe become, uh, a wife or mother or maybe they might work in a factory, you know? But that's pretty much, you know, other things have changed. While it was so my family trade, my uncles and they were all painters and decorators, and, um, that's, I started to do that. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But, um, somewhere along the way, either hanging around the streets, playing football, talking to people, people used to kind of talk to me a lot, you know, Um, and, and women, Jimmy, come here. I wanna talk. You know, they would confide in me and, and guys hard guys, you know, that wouldn't, don't tell anyone, you know, And I wasn't thinking nothing about, and like, I can talk to you. That was the thing, you know, I didn't realize that was a thing. And you know, like most places at the, the streets were tough, but I wasn't a tough guy at all. You know, I could play football and I could bluff a little bit, but it wasn't tough. And I kind of survived that way by being like the therapist for the all the head cases. But I didn't know that at the time, you know? So I didn't realize that was going to be a skill that would become maybe a, a career for me. And, and it did later on. So only as I reflect back on that, I can see that. Does that make sense? I never would've thought, Oh, I'm gonna be a psychotherapist or a counselor that I thought at all, even though I had or have many people have. I'm not just saying to me what I think is the, the most importants for, for counseling or therapy, or is not necessarily a likability factor. Cause not everybody likes me, but, uh, a connecting factor, you know, without effort. Does that make sense? People, you know, I was one of those people, everyone spoke to me, they speak to me on the bus. People say, You've got that kind of face I can talk to and da da. So that I didn't realize, I wasn't thinking this is going to be, Oh, I know how to do this. It's just, I thought I was just being me. And then as door was open later on, and that's, we needed a few hours for that conversation, how I ended up getting into the field, you know? Um, cause I'm 35 years in it now. Um, it was through a place called B mun, which you may or may not have heard of. Quite famous suburb of North Dublin, because in most cities they have big flats, complexes. They didn't in Dublin, but B Mum was the force, one of those type of projects. Huge. And it was quite controversial and it was quite problematic. And, you know, it was open to kind of a lot of addiction and crime and that kind of stuff. But it was also a beautiful Troy, even community as well back, that love combination. So people were on the, on the edge quite a lot, you know? And, um, anyway, there was a local community addiction project, so I wouldn't have time to tell you all the details now, but I ended up working in that. And then they recognized this guy's kind of good at that part, He's good at the counseling part. And then they helped develop that and helped fund me to get, you know, more training. Cause I, oh, by the way, I'd left. I say I left school, They kicked me out when I was 14, So

Speaker 2:

No. Why did you not behave<laugh> like I wanted you to?

Speaker 3:

No, I didn't

Speaker 2:

Fit the mold they wanted it. No.

Speaker 3:

And I'm realizing that now more and more madelina as I speak to, you know, men or women that have come to similar experiences who are really, really intelligent, but they just, the education system didn't fit for them. It didn't for me. I'm not saying I'm really, really intelligent, but I'm intelligent enough. I didn't think I was, you know, I'm the principal of that school who threw, who can you course on this? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Just prove

Speaker 3:

Me out.<laugh>, right. Um, guess what? I'd say he at time said to me, You will never amount to anything you are, you are nothing. He was, he wasn't a nice human being. And I'm always starting to get a call to go to that school, uh, to do talk on. I work with addiction a lot as well, you know, and say, Hey, remember me, You know, But, uh, yeah, yeah, just a little bit of, it's a bit of h there about that, you know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, I guess it happens with a lot of us. I also feel the same in terms of where we are in life, to find people who support us and elevate us in our talents and strengths. You have shared how we fell into it and that you were, you were helped financially then to study and to pursue that. Which, which sounds absolutely incredible. It's

Speaker 3:

Beautiful. And forever grateful for people. Saw something in me, believed in me. I come from a single parent family. My mother was an amazing woman who read a family pretty much on her own back in the seventies. And not many people in the seventies. And Catholic. I think Portugal is quite Catholic as well. Not many people broke up. She did. And, and raised us with the help of some great neighbors as well, you know, So he's an amazing woman.

Speaker 2:

And was she supportive when, when you told her, or when you realized what the path you were going to take?

Speaker 3:

We was, but in a very, very funny, you should say something there. She, she's old school. She's like 84, 85 now to her work was going, You get Doy and you come home and you have your dinner. You know, she didn't realize her ages. This was a job she thought was some kind of voluntary, you know, I, I was doing volunteer work in the Simon community at the time as well, connected with homelessness and, um, you know, marginalized people began there as well. Cause I always like felt I was one, suppose it was identification and growing up in a, you know, and, and not having the dad so as to speak and feeling that kind of stigma and connecting with people who felt the same. You know, And again, I can reflect on this now. We didn't know this at the time. This has just happened, so, Yeah. Yeah. But she was, and she, she's immensely proud of me now, which is lovely. For years, she didn't think it was a job, you know, She's like, When you gonna get a job,<laugh>, go sit around, talk to people, drink tea.

Speaker 2:

That's, that's wonderful. So now talk a little bit about, you know, your experience and how to you, trauma and addiction are linked. It sounds like you started very young working with people with, uh, addiction. So we'd love to hear your view on that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure. Again, some of the family stuff that been addiction there, which would been part of why my, my father was, he was a non present father, kind of, uh, you know, and he went off in his journey, so to speak. Um, so I was aware of it then. And like, you know, I grew up, I seen a lot of alcohol addiction, drug addiction. I could see the kind of heart take combined with that. People being really upset, feeling hurt quite a lot somewhere, even as I was young, I was connecting that what's, what's that all about? But I just seemed to be drawn to that work. Um, you know, I think addiction can create drama and trauma, create addiction and, and, and their, you know, interlinked in that respect. And one feeds into the other, I think, you know, Definitely. So that was really, really my path. And I was in an area said body one the time that had a high level of addiction, or it was known for that. Uh, because people were, a lot of people on the edge. A lot of people ended up in, you know, a lot of poverty and, you know, people leaned into alcohol, leaned into to various drugs. A lot of people weren't necessarily having problems. They just learned to use that to cope with feelings and so forth. So I became interested in that area. And even more, uh, I'm actually one of my own part. I do a podcast myself. I'm gonna be talking about this, this bit, a little bit more about addiction to people, particularly to people who are not good for us, you know, the bad boy girls to speak, which is a real trauma reaction, You know, trying to resolve something with somebody who is not nice, but somehow the child, Amy thinks I'm not nice and I have to get them to like me. And that complex piece is very, you know, again, it's not a rational piece. God, why, why, why are we drawn back to him? Why is he with her or him? But God, she's terrible to him. He's terrible to her. That Why does my mom stay with my dad? Wait, I could see child can see clearly just, you know, that, that space, that that's the, that trauma response that we'll stay with someone, you know, and the kind of the love bombing from the narcissism, all that kind of stuff, you know? Yeah,

Speaker 2:

Yeah. What you said about it, it feels all almost like cyclical as well. Like if you had trauma when you get into addiction, and then addiction just creates more circumstances that just perpetuate a life. But I, I am curious about something which is, do you feel like addiction can just exist when someone has that predisposition without, without suffering trauma? Do you think that is a possibility? Or do you think you always have to have a trigger?

Speaker 3:

I, I do. If I'm, I'm really glad your hospital, Natalie. It will question. Um, yeah, I, some people are, I remember, I'll give you an example. I was doing training in a treatment center in, in Minnesota. God was very lucky to get training. That's a big center for addiction training in Minnesota, modeled in America. And I remember we were doing a lot of these conversations and this guy said, Well, look, he said, uh, I had a fantastic family, had a great upbringing, got a great education, thought I what doing an American accent. I'll do anyway, you know, everything was cool. Had some great relationships, great self-esteem. I just love getting stomped, right? So there is that as well. Although I often wonder, they often do wonder at some levelers or something, it opens up the whole area of like, well, there's something about this planet or this being human, it, it's not quite perfect, you know? So if it's not one thing, it's gonna be another. I don't think there's like addiction's an expression of that imperfection. There's expression of that, you know? I don't know if there's anyone that's right. So it's this big, whatever that would be. And quite frankly, they wouldn't interest me. You know? You know, I love the vulnerability and as human beings and the, the place of being able to be okay as you are not striving to be something that you're never gonna be anyway, whatever the illusion, you know, know, but just find out in therapy why I got, you know, it's fine to explore stuff, you know? Does that, I know it's not a straightforward question, is that,

Speaker 2:

Oh no, that makes perfect sense. And then it's beautiful. I feel like since the moment we were born, we're constantly trying to look for antidotes of relief, trying to just be the person that we think that everybody wants us to be, or that we think we wanna be. We also know that you do a lot of pro bono counseling work, um, with the traveler community. Like to share a bit about that,

Speaker 3:

I think far probably made me sound better than I actually am. I have the imposter syndrome, God, I don't do all that. I mean, pro bono, that's really American term. Um, of course, I want to earn a living, you know? Cause some people bli, I know Henry charges me a fortune now. Um, I try to keep my prices reasonable cause I'm not, sounds crime, not about the money course. I want money to live. Um, but I do have a very deep commitment draw to work with people that may not be able to afford therapy or as much, you know, doing it for nothing completely can be, feel disrespectful to people. So people often wanna get something, but I, I'll do it. But they call sliding scale quite a lot, you know, So it's just keeping the balance of doing, getting enough of money that you get paid for so we can then, you know, I'd love to come into a few bob when the lottery is on, then I just do all sure all of it that way, you know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And how is it working with the traveler community? Is it a different kind of atmosphere from other types of clients? Yes,

Speaker 3:

The traveler community are interesting. Cause I've, I friends, um, a beautiful man called Thomas McCann, uh, who is the founder member of the travel counseling service, um, and the manager. And we've just been friends for years, although we just kept crossing paths. And he started this, he said, Jimmy, would you be interested in being part of that? You know, I mean, they'll pay you as well. You know what I mean? It's not all in that sense. But, um, what's interesting, the draw to the traveler traveling community is for me, quite similar to feeling kind of working class on the edge. Like in this profession, technically I'm not meant to be in it, You know, I get a new client, they come to the door and they're looking at me kinda, Where's the therapist? I just don't look like, I know I take that as a compliment, but work with traveling community, the, the, the, the marginalized, the on the edge, that's that space. The look down upon, you know, as a child, I had in school traveler friends, I didn't know they were travelers. And others said to me, What are you hanging around with them for? You know? And maybe I could identify at some level with that feeling of feeling different or whatever, as many people can, you know, I'm not saying like, I'm alone in this world. Not, not at all, but, and I just, it's a, it's a fascinating community. There, there are wonderful people there. They, they up like everyone else, but I'm, I'm, there are original people on this planet. They're the indigenous people of Ireland. You know, I love talking to the older travelers about how it used to be. And some of the new things that have come in are great, but like the rest of the world, some of the new things are not great. Yeah. So I'm still connected with them through, through Thomas and, and, uh, a couple of others. Um, there's actually a good podcast by friend of mine called A Traveler and a Country Man. Right? Travelers refer to non travelers as countrymen. Right. Which is a bit confusing, even if you live in the city. And, and our travelers, all travelers have a, a language as well called the can, the gamin. Well, certain, it's not a slang, it's a real language. So where travelers will be have, he's non travelers will be like buffers, but often they'll say, countrymen. Anyway, my friends, Dean Gory does this podcast with Martin Stokes, who's a traveler, and they just riff about the culture, what it's like, what certain people, how we perceive each other. So that's really, really interesting. Just as you mentioned travelers there,

Speaker 2:

That does sound interesting. And, uh, how do they become open to seeing a therapist that interests me as well.<laugh>, Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Very intuitive question. Um, not easily. And that's where Thomas McCann and there were others, but he was very intuitive, very skilled man. And he really pioneered that. Rather than trying to bring travelers into the settled world, integrate, you know, meeting that way, let's, let's bring therapy to the traveler world and adapt it. Because working in the traveler community and with other marginalized communities, what I learned about therapy rules all change. It's quite different. So, uh, that's, so again, Thomas would've really pioneered a lot of that stuff and how got to be culturally, uh, inclusive and aware and of how you present therapy. But there's a huge amount of suspicion, understandably, that is changing quite a lot. Um, which is wonderful. Uh, Thomas and other travelers are involved in the traveling council service. They're there. They're saying, Look, we're your people, you know? Yeah. We've got a few country men involved as well as they call them, but that's okay, you know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It sounds fascinating. It sounds like also a good experience for you as a therapist. It must be very rewarding to work with a community like that. A big question. Any of you, Why do you think there's still so much discrimination in Ireland?

Speaker 3:

Got a few hours now made, I know we've won you a short, Um, that's a very, very deep, deep, deep issue. I think it goes way back to the distorted Catholicism, because being Christian or Catholic, there's some beautiful parts to that. But we know it's been very distorted, we presume is the same in Portugal, in Spain. And, you know, we get that, uh, and it's origins. I think it was a really beautiful thing. I think, uh, the colonization from Britain 800 years ago plays a huge role in that because we are an oppressed people. So it's deep in our psyche. So often as a defense mechanism, we become judge and suspicious. So I think it's, it's trauma playing out collectively. If you get me. I think that's, you know, and there's lots more complexity. Complexity. I know you get that, but, um, put your question to me again.

Speaker 2:

My question was, in your view, why is there still so much discrimination in Ireland?

Speaker 3:

Ok, that's true. And, and I think tribalism, people being tribal fear, I think it's fear. Cause a lot of people I know would say, you know, they like the travelers when you get down underneath, they're actually all right. It's more ignorance, you know? It's like with race, it's a quite similar, you know, it's like if I can make you, you know, uh, if I can make you different, then I'm okay. If I can make you the enemy, if I can create fear, then that makes, somehow makes me okay. I don't have to go into that kind of hinter land and feel a bit uncomfortable and be curious and smell what you're like, and you can smell what I'm like and you can meet there, you know? So I think simp plans would think would be fair. A lot people are conscious of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're talking about Ireland, but I can see how it can be most cultures in most countries in the world right now. Very interesting subject about thinking about collective trauma and why do we have instinctively this fear and this need of, uh, defensiveness and aggressiveness all the time between peoples. It's,

Speaker 3:

I'll get you forced before you get me, basically, isn't it? Yeah. I'm anticipating you're gonna get me. Generally that's not real. We know that sometimes that can be real. Generally that's not very real at all. You know, it's a, it's an old distorted fear play out kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Here at the View we deal with women who have suffered trauma or want to support women who suffer with trauma. So I'm just wondering if you can suggest a couple of, uh, quick hot tips of, of how to deal with trauma when you are overwhelmed, when

Speaker 3:

That's, again, that's, that's a, a fabulous question. And it's one that could be, you know, that's could be an hour or two our podcast on. But I suppose I would say I break it down into three or four pieces, right? One would be environment. So, and I'm presuming we're talking about adults, cuz again, I work with a lot of men and women who have been through the prison system as well. And you know, women who have been the subject to a lot of abuse and stuff, and men. So generally speaking, when we're feeling overwhelmed or triggered as the term is, or a flashback is coming in, it's generally into a younger or a child space, right? We're not aware of it at the time we're out, we're in a group, we're having a row, so something happens and we get that overwhelmed feeling or you know, and it feels very real at the time. So we have to be aware of what the environment, what's happening. And I'm gonna use the term to remember, I'm an adult and I don't mean that in a judgmental way. I mean it in a really supportive way. Meaning there's a younger part of me being aroused here. I'm actually okay, I'm not back there. You know, it just takes a lot of practice, of course. So the environment, body, particularly to be aware of your hands, your feet, souls of your feet course to breathe. And I would say wherever you are, remove yourself. I'm a big believer in, in, there's a big joke about this in some way. Podcast, toilet therapy. Toilet therapy is where you remove yourself to the toilet because it's the one place not you would hope no one else is gonna be right. You imagine you're just gonna be there on your own. So whether you're in a meeting, a group, a family situation, wherever this, the overwhelm happens out, get in somewhere. I may not have to be a toilet, then you can sit and breathe, then you can kind of go, I'm an adult man or woman, I'm actually okay that your younger parent, you have to have being triggered takes a, you know, I'm a bit afraid, you know, again, my body's got maybe hormones pumping through it. Maybe it's got, uh, what's that word, adrenal in and cortisol running through me that's creating my heartbeat. I'm starting to sweat. I'm not thinking clearly. I could start to dissociate, you know, and to be really, really compassionate and kind when that happens. Cause it just means your system's working brilliantly if you think about it. It's just, it's working too good. You know, it's kinda like, I often describe, it's like a bouncer, you know, on the door of your life. And he or she is punching the good people as well, you know, and she don't, don't hit them now they can come in. So the system's doing, the alarms are going off great. They're working, but they're working too much. Can we breathe the great breathing technique, it's a guy called Andrew Huberman, he's a neuroscience scientist. Uh, he's really good at love the physiology stuff, but it's a great breathing technique for overwhelm, right? It's really, really simple, right? Two quick breaths up the nose, hold big, long one out. It's that you wouldn't wanna do too many then because you get dizzy. That's to relax. What happen is you begin to relax. That will enable you then to refocus and orient where am I am an adult? Am I okay? Do I need to remove yourself from the situation? Excuse me. You know, so many people would not end up in prison. I feel in that moment have they have said, leave that with me.<laugh> people often are Jimmy if only had just walked away, People got frightened and hit someone. We know all of that. But that, that short breathing's really, that's like a first day kept one. That's, you couldn't do that all day because you'd get dizzy and you'd fall, you know, But it initially calms you down. Then you can reorient yourself in that way, then get your breath. It's good to just get regular breathing going anyway, you know? And once again, that adult piece comes in and tells you the story of what's corrects the story. You're okay. So it's almost a bit like, you know, we, we talk about inner child work, it's almost a bit like you're becoming your own parent. So I've noticed what happens is, I'm gonna give you an example. This happened to me back the seventies, right? The late seventies. I was somewhere in, in living in, in the north inner city here actually. And there were different people living in apartments. So someone came running in with a gun. Now that was unusual back in the late seventies. It wouldn't be unusual now in Dublin or in any city, like where is so and so, so and so, Like, I had a baby in my arms, my friend's baby, lymph baby, right? Everybody was freaking out. But I felt really, really calm because I always come to mind this baby. So I spoke to the guy, I said, Listen to me, you know, he's, he's not here, you know, and he might be frighten the baby. And then he was like, Oh right, sorry. You know, But the point I'm making is that metaphor, if we look after our own baby, our own child, it kind of calms you. I don't know whether you have children Meela, but I don't either. But we get this. Or if you're around a young person, it's almost like nothing's gonna happen. I'm not afraid of anything. So there's something about becoming your own internal parent. Again, people are listening. It takes a bit of practice, it's very calming. I had another incident recently, right? Where have some living in that. We've been very, very difficult neighbor. I wouldn't presume she was, Listen, she's a head case and not the good kind, right? Not the nice lovable guy. Anyway, she got into this banging on the walls and screaming and da, she's mad, right? My I adult know is that's fine. But one of the nights I got really scared, right? Really, really frightened. And I recognized, I felt I was about seven or eight and there was trouble going on and my heart was beat was, so I had to, okay, Jimmy, I spoke to myself as if I was speaking to young boy, you know, and some people going, Oh, so spoken, but, and immediately began to calm down and I did the breath and then it was fine. I was saying, she's just mad. Don't mind her. You know, you're gonna be okay. That's a cliche, but you're going be okay, okay. No matter what's going on. I've got you. I've got you. Okay,

Speaker 2:

Jim, thank you so much. I, I think that's incredibly beneficial, not just for people who have trauma, it's hard to be gentle with ourselves.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Because we're, we're replaying what we were told though. We felt by some narcissist, crazy saying You're a piece of sugar. No. So we do that to ourselves. Yeah, that's the real damage. I'm not saying what they did, it's what we're doing to ourselves so we can, you know, and half the battle, there's no one, this is trauma. It's ok, I'm not mad.

Speaker 2:

And I guess if we, if we are able to stop the war within ourselves, then we can stop boring with the person next to us and we

Speaker 3:

Go with the war. I'm go me, I go the world, do you know, go me as they get. That's a beautiful thing, isn't it? To ease the conflict within, you

Speaker 2:

Know? Yeah. Jimmy, we're coming close to the end. I just wanted to tell the listeners about your podcast, which is called TWI conversation. So if anyone is interested in hearing you talk more, which I am<laugh>, um, I've heard a couple of them and Jimmy goes into a lot more detail into specific subjects and uh, it's very, very fascinating. So

Speaker 3:

You don't like to see where don't in

Speaker 2:

Exactly, I realize you have new medical terms that you've created

Speaker 3:

Just to say there's a slight change in format that the, the good idea I was originally doing the podcast with, he's running into some health issues, so he's not doing them with me for, for the while I thought I was gonna finish doing them, but then someone said, Look Jimmy, you're good enough, Do them mind, do them. So I started to interview people, I interview with Glenn Answered, I've interviewed Dean Scurry. I'm interviewing, I'm doing one this afternoon actually with a guy called Sparky from from B Mun, uh, sensational guy. And I mean, they're not all gonna be celebrities as such. You know, maybe I'll interview you for my podcast. How would that be?

Speaker 2:

I dunno, I dunno if I could contribute to your podcast, but I'd love to chat with you more<laugh>.

Speaker 3:

Sure. For def definitely There's a thing like the idea around interviewing Glen and, you know, people that are in the public eye such, I know you're, you're kind of in that world a little bit. I, I understand that, but there's a whole trauma around, and Glen and I spoke about it, the fame being seen, not being seen, the what does that do to you? What happens when you're doing really, really well, then you get dropped by your manager, your album, or you don't get that part, or you know, or people aren't looking at you anymore or they are looking at you. And that must be, you know,

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it does take a lot of resilience, I suppose, but in my experience, a lot of support because that's when you see, uh, where, you know, people's mental health can go and looking for antidotes and the alcohols and the drugs. So, um, but yeah, I just, I really, really urge everybody listening to go and, and have, listen to the TWI conversations. And just very briefly, how did that come up? So how, how did this podcast idea come up?

Speaker 3:

Myself indeed, the guy who I started doing them with, we d works as a therapist also. And the, the, the building I'm in now, this is my therapy room I'm in. There's a kind of a communal area where people have tea in that I, I bumped into this idea a few times there and we, we joked and da da da, then we started riffing a little bit. So we, every day we did that and someone else was listened and said, You two should record that. And we were being a bit of reverence about therapy, which is really important to do because it can be a bit, you know, bit stiff and it just kind of grew from there really, you know, and such it's quite new, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And this concludes our podcast for today. Thank you very much Jimmy, for coming on and sharing from your fascinating experience and field. If you'd like to hear more from Jimmy Heads to his podcast, The Twilight Conversations, and you can go to the view magazine.org.uk for more information on the view. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening.