Episode 26: Conversation with Siyanda - miscarriage of justice

In today’s episode, one of the founders of The View, Farah Damji, speaks with Siyanda, who was released from prison recently, about her experiences inside, what she learned and what kept her going.  A few weeks ago we brought you an important podcast with Camilla, Siyanda's mother and the force behind the Free Siyanda campaign. Camilla believes her 22 year old daughter who was vulnerable and disabled was let down and has suffered a miscarriage of justice.

She was sent to prison for 4 years and 6 months. Her attackers walked free although Siyanda called the police and was clearly the victim of a racially motivated violent attack. We explore Siyanda's experience inside prison, what she learned, and what kept her going. Siyanda's wrongful incarceration led to the beginning of the Free Siyanda campaign, from which she got a lot of support. After two years and three months, she has faith that this was not the end for her. The unfair sentence has caused a rift between her and the administration of justice.  

She says "There's a miscarriage of justice because I'm a Black woman."

As a Black woman, the judge considered Siyanda a criminal and a threat to the public even though she believes he knew she was not guilty. She felt that the judge had to make some negative comments. While in prison, she did not get any support for her disability; her mum had to send her medication to ease her pain. The situation also caused her trauma leading to Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy in prison when she finally hit rock bottom.   

Siyanda hopes that with the help of the campaign, she can free herself from the wrongful conviction and help other people in the same situation she was in. Since different organisations could not help black people, especially women who find themselves in prison or in the wider justice system, Siyanda and her legal team took her case to the Court of Appeal and the judge accepted their witness statement as fresh evidence. 

 Amplifying the Free Siyanda campaign will help raise awareness in the community, especially for black people who are racially abused in Wales. There should be a mass movement with people who have been abused to come out and tell their stories.  

Siyanda believes that the justice system should change, and women being sent to prison for the crimes of men should not be incarcerated. 

"For anyone who is not white, your life is irrelevant to them," she says.

 The judge said she had been through so much, after looking at her pre-sentencing report, and she had overcome so much, and there was no reason she could not overcome prison. 

This is an appalling attitude for a judge to take which is literally, "It sounds like you have been abused before; let me abuse you some more."

With the justice system clearly favouring white people, Siyanda said she felt that her life was not as important as a lighter skinned or white person's life. 

For #FreeSiyanda: http://freesiyanda.com/

To Donate to The View here

Transcript

Farah Damji - host from The View

Siyanda - guest

Madalena Alberto- host The View  (00:00):

Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice podcast. We want to change the way you see justice, so we bring you the stories and lived experiences of women who have gone through the justice system, whether as victims of abuse, violence, exploitation, or state neglect, or women in conflict with the law. You remember a few weeks ago we brought you an important podcast with Camilla, Siyanda’s mother and the force behind the free Siyanda campaign. Camilla believes her 22 year old daughter who was vulnerable and disabled was let down and has suffered a miscarriage of justice. In today's episode, one of the founders of The View Farah DamjiI speaks with Siyanda, who was released from prison recently about her experiences inside, what she learned and what kept her going. Keep listening to find out what gives this courageous woman the fight to keep going so she can clear her name.

Farah Damji - host (00:58):

How long is it since you've been released Siyanda?

Siyanda (01:01):

Um, about two weeks.

Farah Damji - host (01:04):

So not so long.

Siyanda (01:05):

No, no, not too long. But, yeah, it feels like ages already.

Farah Damji - host (01:11):

It's so strange how time just plays tricks with you when you're inside, doesn't it? Time goes so slow and you get out and it's suddenly like the world is just so incredibly fast. You look so healthy.

Siyanda (01:20):

I was literally thinking the exact opposite.

Farah Damji - host (01:23):

<laugh>. No, listen, you look so well, your colour is so good. Your complexion is so good. Should have seen me when I came out. Oh my God,

Siyanda (01:30):

How long were you in for?

Farah Damji - host (01:32):

The last time they recorded me for 15 and a half months on an unlawful recall and my parole board hearing got put off ,and then we started The View in Downview Prison and the governor asked me to start a magazine. So, I used to be a journalist. I was like, Yeah, great, I'll start a magazine. And then I got into so much trouble, they shipped me out to North Yorkshire and then of course I thought my parole board hearing was going to get postponed again. But finally, 15 and a half months later when the parole board finally saw me, they did an immediate release. There was like, "There is no reason this woman needs to be in custody," but it was horrible. I was in such a state when I got out. Oh my god, it was awful. So, Siyanda, I'm really honoured to welcome you on our Rebel Justice podcast, we've tried to do as much as we can to support your cause. We wrote about your case in one of our earlier issues, so it's an absolute pleasure to speak to you. Now that you've been released as you just told me for just a couple of weeks, how did it feel to be incarcerated when you knew that you'd done nothing wrong?

Siyanda (02:35):

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird one really. So obviously like all of the emotions that you can imagine, angry, upset, like devastated, I just didn't know like what, what the rest of my life was going to entail. But yeah, it was absolutely soul destroying really. Especially because at the time when I went to prison, not a lot of people actually knew what happened, my story and stuff. It was only if, um, a couple of weeks before that I sort of made it public what I was going through. So obviously of course I didn't have all of the support of like the campaign. I didn't have all of that behind me, so I was just, yeah, really unsure of like what was going to happen. And even though it was, so I got four and a half years, obviously do half of that in custody, two years, three months in the scheme of things, is not that long of time.

Siyanda (03:33):

But on that first day or like when you walk down those stairs, you literally, you feel like this is going to, it's going to go on forever. So yeah, it was really soul-destroying, but there was always like this little part like of me that felt it wasn't the end. Like there was something more coming, but I didn't know what it was and obviously now I still don't know what it is. It just didn't feel final if that makes sense. I just knew that this journey was going to keep on going, but I just obviously didn't know and yeah, didn't know what was going to come of it. And even now coming through it sort of, I'd say I'm in the middle of it. I still don't know what's going to come out of it at the end. But yeah, I'm just trying to keep positive really..

Farah Damji - host (04:21):

You say that two years and three months is not a long time, but how old were you when you first went to prison?

Siyanda (04:29):

I was 21.

Farah Damji - host (04:31):

So that, that is quite a, a chunk of time, you know, at that age or at any age really?

Siyanda (04:37):

Yeah, no, it is. I mean I think any, any length of time in prison is, is too long really. And, the reason I look at it like that is because at the time I felt like it was the end of the world, but since being in prison and meeting all different people and seeing different people's circumstances and stuff, I realized that actually even though my circumstances are not great and it's quite horrible what happened to me, there's actually so many people in prison in I'd say worse circumstances than me, but they're not fortunate to have like the loving family that I have or the friends that I have or like the support that I have. So yeah, that's why I sort of look at it like, you know, it is only two years, three months because actually I know that I have the rest of my life now, but then there's other people that don't know that or don't get that. So, does that make sense?

Farah Damji - host (05:36):

Absolutely. That's such a powerful message that whatever they do to us, you know, we always all still have a future.

Siyanda

Yeah.

Farah Damji

Do you trust the justice system now Siyanda after what's happened to you?

Siyanda (05:48):

<laugh>? No. Sorry. I don't

Farah Damji - host (05:57):

<laugh>.

Siyanda (05:57):

Yeah, no, definitely not. And even more so have absolutely zero trust in them since being in prison. And like I said, talking to people and hearing people's stories, I don't know what this system is but it's not a justice system, it's a joke that's it because yeah, there's just so many miscarriages of justice.

Farah Damji - host (06:24):

Tell us about a typical day in prison. Did you get any rehabilitation, and did you have to do any offending behaviour programs?

Siyanda (06:32):

So, the days, well there was like sort of look at my sentence in blocks because of course I went in on the 13th of March, 10 days later it was lock down. So literally like in those first like four months, five months, literally a normal day was just, wow, it was 23 hour banger. So literally in the south 23 hours just waiting for them to open the door so you could get lunch and dinner and then yeah, just sort of shouting at your door, asking for a shower and then being told no most days. Yeah, just lying in bed, watching rubbish on tv. Yeah, that's really what the, the first like few months look like. After that it wasn't much better, but I just was able to cope with it better. Reading, writing, I ended up getting, I got a DVD player so started watching box sets it like, there really was no like much routine or structure to most of my sentence until I like changed prison, in November 21.

And then I started to get a lot more structure to my day in routine. But there was no like rehabilitation going on, nothing at all. I did one course and to be honest, I did the course not because I had to because I literally was so bored, I just needed to get out of my cell and do something. And it was like anger and violence course, which lasted for like five weeks. So that's the only course I did. And then obviously it did link to the conviction that they gave me. So that was a bonus. But to be honest, I used to ask, because you get your offender manager, I used to ask them, is there anything that you want to put on my like sentence plan or whatever? Just because I was literally super bored and they always used to say to me; You don't need, you don't need help from us.

Like you don't need anything from us. You just need to do the sentence and that's it. You don't actually need anything. So, I'd be like, so can I go then? Because you are telling me that I'm this dangerous criminal, like you have to go to prison to be rehabilitated and all of this. But then in the next saying, there's nothing we need to do for you. They're, they're saying, you don't have anger issues, you don't have this, you don't have that. You know, you're not a violent person. You're not this, so, okay, so why am I in prison? 

Farah Damji - host (09:06):

That's just so alarming that they can keep young woman inside for two years and three months and often no rehabilitation at all. So literally it was a cage. You, there was no rehabilitation, there was no sentence plan, it was just a cage you. So, what would you say to the judge that sentenced you? He sentenced you because you were a dangerous criminal Siyanda and a threat to the public and a risk to the public and you know, all this other nonsense that these judges say and they're sentencing speeches which are just so alarming and abusive and horrific. Judges need much better training in their language and the abuse that they heap on women in particular because it is disgusting. What would you say to your sentencing judge now?

Siyanda (09:49):

You know, for me it's quite difficult because the judge that sentenced me, when he sentenced me, I know for a fact that he knew that I wasn't guilty and it was quite clear that he knew that he was sort of skirting around it, trying to say like so many positive things. But then obviously for some reason they're bound, they have to say something negative, I don't get it. So, it's difficult for me because I know that in his own way, which is just quite messed up. But in his own way, like I think he was trying to make the situation a tiny bit better and taking like everything into consideration. But to be honest, taking, taking that out of like taking my own opinion about like his feelings and stuff out of the equation, to be honest, I just have nothing to say. Like literally nothing to say because there's nothing positive to say. There's nothing, nothing negative to say. Those people really just don't deserve my energy, to even have anything to say.

Farah Damji - host (10:57):

What kind of support did you get in prison to help you with your trauma and your disabilities?

Siyanda (11:03):

So, when it comes to my disabilities, nothing. So, anything that I had, to give me any comfort in terms of easing of any pain or anything literally came from my mom, she had to send it in. My mom had to send me in, a tennis machine, she sent me in knee braces, all stuff like that. But yeah, like every time I asked for help, it was always like, we can't give it to you, or we don't do that or whatever. Like I fell down the stairs on one of the wings and literally I couldn't walk. I couldn't even walk, and I had my stick, but I needed crutches, and they just didn't offer it. They were like, we don't do crutches. Sorry. What do you want us to do? Just lie in bed. Like what do you want us to do? That went on for like two weeks. That was really bad. There is no support. It's literally just help yourself and then you just get responses like wow, you shouldn't have come to prison then. And stuff like that. While I didn't choose to be here, but yeah, nothing in terms of disabilities. In terms of mental health and the trauma, I got EMDR therapy through, from the prison. But to be honest, that I literally had to basically hit rock bottom and then actually worried for my welfare, I literally only got that because I was literally on the floor, like rock bottom, they were worried that they were going to have something on their hand sort of thing, that was literally, I know that was the only reason. They took me off all of my medication.

So, I was taking medication for mental health like before I went into prison and then got into prison and they got took it all off me just like, you can't have this, sorry. Then I didn't get any medication until the June. So that's like three months later. And by that point, as you can imagine with the circumstances, plus just going into prison anyway is, it's going to be take a toll on anyone. And then with the 23 hour banger, I was literally on the floor. So yeah, that, you know, that helped me. But that's when I got it.

Farah Damji - host (13:24):

So, it was literally when you were desperate and begging for help and on the floor and when they thought they might have another death in custody on their hands, that they actually turned around and said, No, we need to help her. That's disgusting. And I've got no words. What is your hope for the free Siyanda campaign?

Siyanda (13:40):

So, I mean obviously my hope is that well obviously to free myself with the conviction <laugh>. But more importantly than that, I want to help people who find themselves in situations that they just don’t know how to get out of when it comes to the justice system. Um, because actually the one thing that I didn't have, I had my family, my friends, I had all of that, but there was no one that I could go to for any information, any help, any guidance about the situation that I was, I currently found myself in, which I find crazy because there are so many people that have been in this situation. So, there was no sort of, I mean like in Wales there’s none of the sort of race equality organizations, that wanted to help, and there was no one else that I knew to go to apart from one organization, which wasn't even in Wales, and they helped me as best as they could. But yeah, that, that is ultimately my hopes for the, for the free Siyanda campaign, which is the much, much bigger, much more important goal, but being able to support people black, like especially like black, brown women, being able to support them if they find themselves in this situation or any other situation where there is an injustice to do with this system. <laugh>. Yeah. Cause it's just crazy.

Farah Damji - host (15:17):

That's brilliant. Just give us a brief update on where the campaign is and what happened at the appeal court and why you’re doing a ground justice campaign.

Siyanda (15:30):

At the moment we are waiting to petition to the Supreme Court. We are gathering the information that we need and once we have that, we'll be able to lodge that appeal again with the Supreme Court. So that's going really well. And then in terms of what happened previously at the appeal court, obviously I wasn't there so I only sort of know what I, what I've been obviously discussed and told. I've not really read any of like the court documents because I just don't see the need to, but basically my legal team were able to forensically prove who caused my face to have a footprint mark on it. So that was, that was able to be done. We were able to basically show like the cast out on the witness, on the witness statements, the statements that were given in court.

So, we were able to cast the doubt on that. So, the judge accepted our argument for that. But I think overall, we were able to basically show and prove in the court of law that a lot more did happen than what was previously told in court which obviously was a positive, a little bit more of my story got to come out. We've still got like a long way to go. I am really hopeful and positive that once we go to the Supreme Court, my full story will be able to come out and everyone will be able to see the situation for exactly what it is. Obviously, it's difficult because there's some things I can't talk about. But the appeal last March was definitely positive, and the judges definitely accepted a lot of, or most of what my team had to present on the day.

Farah Damji - host (17:30):

Well, we wish you the very best of luck in the Supreme Court. We will definitely be watching and covering what you're doing. How did it feel when you saw your case covered in The View?

Siyanda (17:42):

Oh my god, it was crazy actually because at this point I'd moved to open prison and there was like a, a mental health sort of, I wouldn't even say a counsellor, but she was just there for advice, just have a sit-down and talk to. And so, I used to go and see her sometimes and basically she was like, “Oh, I’ve seen you in a magazine.” And I was like, “What?” Like really, really confused. And so yeah, I ended up just going to find it in the library like a couple of days later and I couldn't believe it when I saw it. It made me feel really happy actually. I was really, really overwhelmed because, I mean obviously I've received letters and you know, I know that there was support out there, but it was really crazy actually like having the physical magazine like I still have it. Like I brought it home with me <laugh>, I actually just took it out the library. I was like, I don't even care. This is mine <laugh>.

Farah Damji - host (18:43):

Oh, that's brilliant. That's such, that's so good. We do send quite, well we were sending quite a lot of them into the prison libraries, but unfortunately we've had to go digital because of the cost of paper and stuff, but hopefully we're going to start doing paper ones at least once a year. But that just makes me, it just makes everything that we go through so worthwhile when I hear your reaction Because that, that's what The View's about. And your mom did actually get in touch and tell us that, that you were so pleased, and you know, we will continue to support and we will continue to do whatever we can do to help to amplify your situation because as you say, it's your case, it is really important and it highlights the injustices that brown and black women go through on a magnificent scale in England. So, you know, we're here whatever we can do for you.

Siyanda

Thank you.

Farah Damji - host

How can we do, what can we do to help and to amplify, I'm going to ask you to write something for our upcoming edition, which is a summary edition, which I'm hopeful will go into the prisons again because it'll be a print edition. But, how can we support and what can we do to amplify and what can put more widely, what can, you know, what can people do to amplify your campaign and your situation?

Siyanda (19:53):

I think, I mean, I get really overwhelmed with people say about amplifying the campaign for me and stuff like that because there's just actually just so much out there.  I'm not sort of narcissistic to think that, you know, it's just me who's going through this. So, I'll just talk about all the wider campaigns especially in Wales in 2020 there were four including myself, quite high profile cases of deaths in police custody and people being treated disgustingly by the justice system and not having justice for the deaths caused by other people. I'm really fortunate I'm still here and I thank God every day, but especially people in Wales, we need to still be, like, they need to still be talking about all these four injustices. Obviously I've come out now I can see like, the Black Lives Matter movement was, everyone was so amped up for it, seems it's completely died down to where it was before I went into prison.

People just need to remember, this is not a fad, it's not just for the moment. This is happening every single day, every single day Black lives are being lost every single day. Black people are being treated disgustingly by the police, by schools, by every corner and inch of society. People need to keep on spreading this. They need to keep on petitioning, they need to keep on making noise about all the injustices that go on, whether it be with the justice system, or another system and I think that is the only way, we literally need like a mass movement. People need to see that we're not taking this anymore, because it's just ridiculous.

Farah Damji - host (21:50):

Oh, absolutely. And I really admire, and I just love your passion and how the horribleness of what was done to you, the violence, the physical violence and the mental violence done to you hasn't changed you and hasn't affected you. I think that's just something, you know, you must hold on to. I'm so proud of how you've come through this, and you know, you have the love and the respect and the admiration of so many people who've just watched your case in disbelief and thought, how, how did the court of appeal not let this go through? So, you know, the best of luck with your appeal in the Supreme Court. I'm hopeful, but you know, let's see. If you could change one thing in the justice system today for women, what would that be?

Siyanda (22:35):

Being sent to prison for the crimes of men. That's what I'd say for the justice system right now. If it was for anything, yeah, women being sent to prison for the crimes of men

Farah Damji - host (22:55):

And for courts to look at that properly and look at what's behind, what's behind a crime. Can I just ask you something Siyanda, did you have a chance for the judge to like in your trial, did the judge ask for a psychiatrist report, a psychologist report where your story could be told, so that the judge knew more than here is a violent black woman standing in front of me. Oh, my goodness, she's violent and she's black and I've got to send her to prison. You know, which is their kind of default thinking. What did the judge actually have to make an informed decision? Did he have any kind of background information on you? Did, did they ask for any, any reports?

Siyanda (23:36):

Yeah, the whole trial lasted a week. The trial lasted a week and three days of it was the prosecution's case and then the whole day was my case. He had all the information that he needed to have. You know, I didn't stop talking on the stand. I said everything that I needed to say. I showed them everything that I could physically show them. I explained everything that I could physically explain. The judge or anyone in that room didn't need any more information to make the right decision. But at the end of the day, my life, I mean anyone's life who isn't white is really irrelevant to them. I remember he said to me, he said, because he asked me to have a presentence report and I remember he said to me in my sentencing, “I can see from your presentence report that you have been through so much and you have overcome so much and there's no reason why you can't overcome this.”

Farah Damji - host (24:42):

I find that absolutely stunning for a judge to say I find it stunning. Yeah, I mean that's like, you've been abused, so let me abuse you some more because you'll be fine. Do you know you'll be grand, you'll be fine. That's, oh, that's just appalling.

Siyanda (24:55):

Yeah. So, the way my mind works, im very analytical with my mind, in one side, I feel like everyone, everyone with half a brain in that courtroom knew, they all knew, but you know, that they don't want to try and help. They're not going to go out of their way to help me. I do think that he, he did try in his own way, but at the end of the day, the only way to really try was just to do the right thing and say, this is ridiculous. This needs to stop this, this makes no sense. You know, when the policeman said in the dark, we did not investigate Siyanda's allegation, he should have stopped it straight away and he didn't because my life is not as important as the life of anyone who, who is, you know, lighter skin tone. I mean, who's white, So that's it.

Farah Damji - host (25:54):

Your life is extremely important, Siyanda and there are multitudes of people that care about you that are watching your case and we will do everything we can. Everyone who's behind you will do everything we can to make them see that our lives matter as much as theirs, if not more than theirs. We come from such incredibly deep, rich ancient cultures and they think they can just throw our lives away as if they mean nothing. Well, the days for that are ending I think where kind of in the end days of this sort of white supremacist system, which is our justice system, we're here to stay in touch,  whatever we can do, we're here for you. So, you have our resources and our platform whenever you want to use it. So, please just, you know, feel free.

I'm really glad that The View gave you some hope and courage and in that same way, you are kind of renewing it and you are going to give so much hope and courage to women who are listening today who feel overwhelmed by the justice system because women like you, you get through it, and you'll win it.

Siyanda:

Yeah, no, definitely. And I, I hope some putting all the vibes out there, but you know, if I can even help this one person it, it's worth it, isn't it? So, the whole thing's bigger than me. So just gotta keep on.

Farah Damji - host:

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot for coming on our Rebel Justice podcast and we really look forward to having you on again really soon.

Siyanda:

No, it's okay. And thank you so much for having me.

Farah Damji - host (27:22):

And this concludes our episode for today. Siyanda, we are very sorry for it has been done to you by this justice system that is failing so many women and in particular minoritized women. We learn so much from your frank openness and the way you described what has happened to you. We'll follow this case to the Supreme Court and report back when there are new developments. We are proud to have been able to do what little we can to support your case. And we pray that justice will be done and those who have harmed you will face you in court in the dock.

Thank you for listening to the Rebel Justice Podcast. Make sure to listen to previous episodes for more on how the justice system is working exactly as it is designed to, to harm women and oppress minorities. If you'd like to know more about The View and you want to join our community, please subscribe using the link on our website and donate using the link below. Thank you.

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