This is a special podcast to celebrate International Women’s Day, where we honour the 750 000 incarcerated women across the globe and call on our governments for rapid decarceration of women in prison for non violent crimes.
The theme for 2022 is #breakthebias and we have the perfect guest - Judge Shannon Frison. Judge Frison sits in the Massachussets Superior Court and has had quite a journey first as an officer in the marines, then a lawyer and now as a superior court judge.
Narince Erkan, a student and president of Durham Rebel Justice Society, spoke to Judge Frison and we are absolutely honoured to learn from what she has to share.
For more unmissable content from The View sign up here
This is a special podcast to celebrate International Women’s Day, where we honour the 750 000 incarcerated women across the globe and call on our governments for rapid decarceration of women in prison for non violent crimes.
The theme for 2022 is #breakthebias and we have the perfect guest - Judge Shannon Frison. Judge Frison sits in the Massachussets Superior Court and has had quite a journey first as an officer in the marines, then a lawyer and now as a superior court judge.
Narince Erkan, a student and president of Durham Rebel Justice Society, spoke to Judge Frison and we are absolutely honoured to learn from what she has to share.
For more unmissable content from The View sign up here
Welcome to this special podcast to celebrate the Views International Women's Day, where we honor the 750,000 incarcerated women across the globe and call on our governments for rapids decarceration of women in prison for nonviolent crimes. The theme for 2022 is hashtag Break the Bias, and we have the perfect guest. Judge Friesen sits in the Massachusetts Superior Court and has had quite a journey, first as a marine officer, then a lawyer, and now as a Superior Court judge. Norin Ahan, a law student and president of Durham Rebel Justice Society, spoke to Judge Freon, and we are absolutely honored to learn from what she has to share over to Rin.
Speaker 2:We're absolutely honored to speak with you, Judge. Um, and thank you for taking the time to be with us. I'm sure we're gonna learn so much from what you'll say and what we're about to hear. So first of all, what made you decide, um, to join the Marines? It's not an obvious choice for women of, um, color in the United States.
Speaker 3:Um, thank you. I joined the Marine Corps pretty, pretty young, but I was in law school at the time. I knew that, um, I wanted to practice law and I pretty much assumed that I would get through that ordeal of law school and be and become a lawyer, but I wanted to have a second career as well. Um, and I wanted the second career to be at least partly physical in nature. Um, when I found out about the judge Advocate programs and particularly the Marine Corps program, uh, it, um, struck me because I, I wanted to serve and for it all to, to sort of have a greater meaning as well. So that's what, uh, drew me to the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2:So the theme for this youth International Women's Day is Break the bias. Um, and how can you, as a, um, prominent black juror help to break the bias? What barriers still exist for you today?
Speaker 3:Um, there, there are a lot of barriers there. There are constant barriers, um, whether you are just starting the practice of law, whether you're well into your, um, practice and or whether you're on the bench, whatever you're doing, there will be issues of bias that you face and encounter. The, um, one of the points I think of, uh, being on the bench and being a, a member of underrepresented communities is to, um, try to keep the issue of bias and the, the difference, the differences in the outcomes, uh, of the people we serve, uh, on the table and clear in minds of judges and, uh, lawyers and clerks and probation officers and everyone that works in this business to keep it alive and on the table and to give, um, to help people understand it more and to understand why we have the disparities that we have. Um, so that's a part of what I think, um, as a black juris part of my responsibility.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Um, so you said you were already in law school when you first joined the Marines. Um, how did you become interested in the law? What, what attracted you to it?
Speaker 3:Well, when I was, um, in grammar school and high school, I, um, had the opportunity to work for a group of black lawyers, uh, during my summers and, um, later on, uh, on a full-time basis. And they, that experience working for them really, uh, solidified my interest in the law.
Speaker 2:So you are also involved in putting, you know, miscarriages of justice, you know, making them right. Um, can you tell us a bit about that and how you're finding that in the US especially?
Speaker 3:That was, um, a, a particular committee, um, so the commission by the Boston Bar Association, and when I was practicing law in Boston, that was, um, something that I, uh, joined that committee, which was multidisciplinary, and it was, um, the focus was to prevent wrongful convictions and to come up with best practices for, um, district attorneys and others in, um, actors in the criminal justice system to prevent, um, wrongful convictions. So it was, um, lawyers, police, um, different agencies involved in that. Uh, I was one of the few, uh, you know, solo practicing attorneys on that committee. So, um, we did some research, had lots of meetings and discussions about the, this topic. And obviously with it being multidisciplinary, everyone did not agree, um, all the time. But we came to some conclusions about criminal justice in Massachusetts and, and some ways that we thought would be instrumental in preventing people from being wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 2:If you don't mind me asking, do you wanna talk a little bit about those sort of conclusions that you came to with the committee on, You know, I know that they're Massachusetts, um, specific, but I I, I, I find that really interesting.
Speaker 3:Sure. No, some of the work had to do with, um, identifications and the use of, uh, more up to date, uh, science as to sort of the frailty of identifications and, um, uh, witness, uh, one-on-one identifications, some, and, and also the way in which those are conducted by the police departments. Um, things like that, that have to do with the actual processes from arrest and investigation all the way up through trial that we thought we could use some tweaking, um, in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2:Great, Thank you. So you run a court based on principles of Justice, Mercy, um, and compassion. Can you tell us a bit about some of the cases that might have stayed with you at your time, um, during your time as a judge?
Speaker 3:There are many cases that stay with me. They, the, the work is, um, it, it's a human endeavor. There are human interactions and failures that lead people to court, whether it's criminal or civil in terms of, uh, compassion and the sort of the philosophy. You know, every, every judge is a little different in how they do things and why and how they think about cases. Uh, for me, the, um, this is my 13th year on the bench. And, um, I've certainly developed over time, uh, to be, um, a little, uh, to be more thoughtful in terms of criminal penalties based upon, uh, some, some inescapable facts, like the fact that the United States is the most incarcerated country in the world, um, like the fact that we even in Massachusetts still impose longer sentences on black and brown people and still impose higher bail on black and brown people. Um, the things that affect your freedom, and with those things in mind, as well as all the basic principles of law and justice and the, the, you know, uh, goals of sentencing, those things have shaped the way that I deal with people who come before me. And it can't help but but shape a, a judge when you have experiences and then you continue to gather knowledge about the outcomes and the way the outcomes affect the communities we serve. So there are so many matters. Uh, one became a, uh, more public display of that type of thought process on my part was a young man who had been sort of in and out of jail for drug selling, drug dealing, essentially, and was before me on another case of the same sort. But it, part of what we do is to try to fashion sentences that make sense, that serve some, some of the goals of sentencing and that fit the particular offender. And, and it struck me at the time that being in and out of, um, jail really wasn't doing the trick with this particular person. It wasn't serving the purpose that we wanted it to serve, and yet I could see that he had potential to do other things. And so instead of yet another term of incarceration, perhaps longer, which is ends up being what happens, um, you, the more you're involved in the system, the longer your, your sentences become. And instead of doing that, I went the other direction and said, All right, you're a cook. You wanna open a restaurant. And, um, but there are things clearly, um, that were driving him to still need to sell drugs and to make money in that way. And I gave him an opportunity, uh, to be on probation and with some other requirements and to sort of give him a second chance at trying to come out of that world and open the restaurant. And so it became the subject of a, an award ceremony, um, in which a, an organization called the Center for Restorative Justice Spotlighted that case is, um, sentenced, uh, my decision and what his life was like thereafter. And I, and I think at that point, he and a friend had actually, um, opened a restaurant. And so the case is like that there are so many of, in which, you know, um, perhaps thinking a little bit more about the whole person and the circumstances may lead to a result that does not involve incarceration all the time. And it doesn't mean that, you know, no one goes to jail or prison on the cases that I preside on there, that that's certainly not the case. Um, unfortunately I've sentenced many people to incarceration, but I think that in the United States, we have to start looking at other ways of addressing criminal activity and, and as judges, uh, who better to, to start trying to make those changes.
Speaker 2:I agree, I think wholeheartedly, and I, I wanted to kind of, um, I I, it's a question I suppose, but how can we, um, could you talk a lot about, like rehabilitative almost kind of approaches to some criminal activity and like recognizing when a person does need art incarceration when they, when they don't. And I think that's a very intuitive way of approaching things that might not be present in the whole of the judiciary, let's say. How can we better, you know, do we educate them about how do we put maybe more compassion or understanding that humanize some of the people that come through the courts, um, can actually, um, conclude and, you know, these sort of success stories doesn't have to, you know, obviously it doesn't have to be a, a massive thing, but people's lives could be changed. So how can we better approach our judiciary in that way, um, so that we kind of have a long lasting change almost in how they approach criminals.
Speaker 3:I think it's happening, uh, to some extent now, if you watch, uh, true crime and court TV and these types of things, we get to see some trials play out, uh, on the national stage from, from state courts, uh, like the court that I sit in, and you get a real sort of bird's eye view in those instances of, of how the state courts operate, how judges operate, how they think, and what the, the processes of being going through trial or criminal case are like for individuals. And I think it, it, it, it can vary greatly across the states, as we have seen in some of the very, um, highly, uh, covered trials. But I, I think right now is a, a such an, uh, exciting moment to be, uh, alive on the planet because there is, uh, particularly here, a focus right now on bias, race discrimination, race relations, um, the, the long term effects of slavery in this country. So much of that, that was not really squarely on the table when we talked about criminal justice is now. And I think it's, um, whether we like it or not, affecting judges and the way we do things and the way we understand, um, our own actions and, and what our decisions lead to, um, in the, in the larger sense with, with the people that we impose sentences on with their families, with those communities, with those cities. And I think, um, the learning process for judges is, is happy. And I think there is a shift in which, uh, we too are being educated on these topics, and we too are doing implicit bias trainings and are learning, you know, that maybe the way we've been thinking about things isn't quite as neutral as we had thought and as we want. So I do think that the public and the bar certainly can affect the way that the courts operate and the way that we do business and, and outcomes by, uh, pushing for judges to be more educated, pushing for judges to have more interaction with the public. Um, I don't think that we can continue to sort of sit on a perch and give out, um, you know, wise advice and counsel and, um, and sentencing and, and decisions without really understanding what's happening. And right now when social media is such a, um, a communication tool and when normal media is so instantaneous now where you can know, uh, what's happening in Ukraine today, as soon as you open your eyes without, with, with a click of a button or just looking onto your phone, it is easier than ever. Uh, I think for judges to be aware and more aware of the world and changes in the world, and how the things that our systems have done affect, um, the world, this country, this state, this community, it, it, it's easier than ever. And so I think the more communication between the bench and the bar, uh, the more communication between the bench and the public, the better.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Um, I have one, uh, last question. So do you think, so obviously the, the, the focus of the views mainly, uh, for women in the criminal justice system as, and also, you know, um, b e women, you know, so what can be done more to sort of protect and divert them from ever coming in contact with the justice system? Because like you said, once it becomes a cycle, it is really hard to, to break it, especially for underrepresented groups and underprivileged groups in the US and in the uk. So what sort of things could we do to change that?
Speaker 3:You know, with regard to women in particular, I think it bears out probably all over the United States that a lot of the, uh, interaction women have in criminal justice system. Some of it is at their own initiation and, and bad decision making. And some of it is, um, based on things that others go through that men go through as well. Um, addiction and substance abuse. Um, and there's a, and there's just separate chunk, uh, with women in which some of the interaction with the criminal justice system is relationship based based on relationships they have with men or others who are engaged in, in crimes and criminal activity. And I think that for women, there are many, many ways to, um, sort of, as you said, divert or prevent them from entering the system at all, including all the sorts of programs that are, um, empowering, empowering to women and girls, uh, sports programs, um, programs that deal with, you know, um, career goals and objectives and programs that educate girls on domestic violence on their rights in the United States and on, um, relationships. You know, these are things that sometimes are not, uh, taught in school. And there are sometimes school based programs. There are sometimes programs that are not school based, but I think, um, activities that empower girls and implant in them, the notion that they make their own decisions and chart their own lives, I think is very, very important. And, um, that's something I think that is improving as well, but we need more of in our communities.
Speaker 2:That was truly, I think, inspiring to me. And, and also I think all of our listeners. So, um, thank you to Judge Friesen and Judge Fries was, will also be doing a takeover, our Instagram on International Women's Day. So keep an eye out for that. It's at, um, Rebel Underscore Justice. But thank you so much, um, for speaking to me today. I think I, I was really enlightened as well as a student. It makes me wanna strive to do better in the legal system.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. This concludes this special podcast where we celebrate International Women's Day. Thank you Judge Friesen for your presence and Narin Arcan for a very powerful discussion. At The View we pay tribute to all women everywhere who are suffering from institutional oppression, deprivation of their liberty, and whose lives are mirrored and obstructed by bias. We call for the freedom of these women out of oppression into the light today. Let's be the change we wanna see and break the bias.