Rebel Justice
What is justice? Who does it serve? Why should you care?
When we think about justice, we think about it as an abstract, something that happens to someone else, somewhere else. But justice and the law regulate every aspect of our interactions with each other, with organisations, and with the government.
We never think about it until it impacts our lives, or that of someone close.
Our guests are women with lived experience of the justice system whether as victims or women who have committed crimes; or people at the forefront of civic action who put their lives on the line to demand a better world..
We ask them to share their insight into how we might repair a broken and harmful system, with humanity and dignity.
We also speak with people who are in the heart of the justice system creating important change; climate activists, judges, barristers, human rights campaigners, mental health advocates, artists and healers.
Rebel Justice
117. The importance of prison reformation - A talk with Pia Sinha (Prison Reform Trust)
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We’re joined by Pia Sinha, CEO of the Prison Reform Trust, whose career spans prison psychology, youth justice, and governing prisons across the UK. Her starting point is simple and hard to ignore: for many women, custody follows a life of trauma, poverty, domestic abuse, and being failed by the very services that were meant to help.
We unpack what prison reform looks like across the whole criminal justice system: pre custody prevention, decent and humane custody, and real resettlement post release. Without the investment into rehabilitation for offenders, “diversion” becomes a slogan rather than a solution, and reoffending becomes predictable.
We also talk about lived experience and why listening is not enough when it is tokenistic. Finally, we look at probation pressures, the difference between risk and need, and why relational support beats tick box processes when the goal is safer communities.
If you care about public safety, fairness, and what actually reduces reoffending, listen now.
Guest - Pia Sinha
Host - Louisa Nabi
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Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_00So today in with Rebel Justice we've got Pia Sinhar, who is an extraordinary individual who has contributed massively to prisons within the UK, starting from being a psychologist of prisons and youth offending institute and making her way to becoming a governor for multiple prisons in the UK, now being the CEO of Prison Reform Trust.
From Psychologist To Prison Governor
SPEAKER_00Pierre, would you like to tell the audience about your career journey and you know what inspired you to first work with prisons in the first place?
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you, Louise, and thank you for having me. Um I joined the prison service in 1999, um, so nearly 27 years ago, and um my journey started um as a psychologist. Um I finished my qualifications as a psychologist, I got chartered as a counseling psychologist, and I was looking for work. Um, and at the time I lived in North London and there were vacancies in Holloway Prison, which was at the time the largest women's prison in the country, and I applied to be a psychologist. I'd never worked with um people who had been um impacted by the criminal justice system prior to this. Um I had worked with um within a sort of substance misuse counseling service, so I had some um contact, but very sort of adjacent contract. Um, but I then yeah, started working in Holloway prison, and um it was my first sort of experience of um working inside a prison. And um, I guess that people who work in prisons, who will be listening to this podcast, who have experience of being inside prison, it's very you know very quickly whether you can work in that environment or not. Uh, and fortunately for me, the work and the the the people that I worked with, the the clients that I had, it felt immediately very, very immersive and gripping. And uh that's how I started my journey uh in in prisons. And I I've continued to work in prisons uh in various forms and in various roles uh all the way until 2023.
SPEAKER_00Well, it sounds like such an inspiring journey, and you've worked in so many different uh positions. What do you feel like has shocked you the most within working in prisons?
What Prison Teaches About Justice
SPEAKER_01They've all been really pivotal, I think, in shaping who I am as a person and who I am as a professional. So I was, you know, I started my journey in into prisons when I was quite young, relatively young, young. I was in my late 20s, and that's quite a sort of formative time in your life, and uh I was influenced a lot by my by my experiences as a as a youngish psychologist working with women who had come into prison with very, very tragic stories themselves, and um it's hard not to be affected by what you hear, and it gives you an insight into you know some of the kind of lives that people have, and and I think that that impact stays with you, it can't not stay with you, and I think that with that comes a realization that justice is uh a strange thing, because I would say that you know many of the women that I worked with, in fact most of them, really shouldn't have been in prison, that they should have been supported, helped, looked after much early on in their lives. And had they had those opportunities earlier on in life, perhaps they wouldn't have been in prison. And and I think that that instills a strong sense of what's right, what's wrong, and that then becomes some of the kind of values that drive you to to you know do certain things. And I think that for me, having had that experience of working as a psychologist, both with men and women, I suppose that was the motivation to try and you know make systems that um uh hold people in the criminal justice system, especially our prisons, safer, fairer, more humane, because ultimately prison offers a reset for people when they're in there. And unless those prisons are humane and fair and procedurally just, that opportunity for people to turn their lives around uh kind of disappears. And I think that it became really important for me that whilst I operated in those systems, that what I did was to try and you know further those aims.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's so true. I think a lot of people tend to think of prisons as this sort of lengthy punishment, and that's it, that's your life over. But it's very true, you need to emphasize uh, you know, rehabilitation and resetting in a new chapter in your life.
Changing Outcomes For Women Offenders
SPEAKER_00Was that while you were part of as an advisor to the UK government's uh Women's Justice Board, was that sort of your main priorities, or was that anything else that you wanted to focus on?
SPEAKER_01Well, it was a real honour to be asked to be uh on the Women's Justice Board, and it's for that reason, because you know, the sad thing is that 27 years ago when I started working as a psychologist in Holloway, um the issues that led to women coming into prisons were still remained largely the same, you know, that there was an injustice as to why women were coming into prison, and that, you know, if there was, as I said before, greater investment, you know, earlier on in their lives, uh, then they perhaps wouldn't be there. And so working or being invited to be part of the Women's Justice Board was a real opportunity to see how I might be able to influence that happening because it's something that has been a problem and a concern for as long as I can remember, in fact, in throughout my entire career, and it still persists as a problem. So it was about looking at how I could use my experience and my knowledge of the system and also direct experience of working with the women to influence change at a policy level but also at a legal level.
SPEAKER_00Now, focusing on sort of obviously your company, what does Prison Reform Trust
What The Prison Reform Trust Does
SPEAKER_00do? Would you like to tell us a bit more about Prison Trust? Sure.
SPEAKER_01So the Prison Reform Trust is a charity and it has been in operation for nearly 45 years, and it's a charity that uh was set up at the time um with the main principles or aims of enabling and influencing a more fair and humane and effective prison system. Um, and that at the time the population was probably you know 40,000, and it was set up on the principles that you know we were sending too many people into prison, and that while they were in prison they weren't necessarily being looked after in the way that they should, that their rehabilitation wasn't something that was being focused on, and the charity still remains fighting that cause. It's about um trying to influence uh various people that are interacting with the criminal justice system towards uh more reform uh agendas. And so whether that's influencing parliamentarians and ministers to bring in more reform-oriented legislation or policies, whether it's working with officials that work within the prison and probation service or the Ministry of Justice to try and um you know give them some insight into how the policies and practices within prisons and probation are impacting people. But also we work directly with people who are experiencing incarceration, whether that's in the prison or in the community, to hear from them about their experiences, to you know, bring their voice into the debate and amplify their voices so you know no one knows better what their experience is, um, other than the people who are going through it themselves. And it's it's about trying to say that their views, their solutions, their strategy, their leadership is vitally important when we're trying to shape policies that affect them. So we have quite a strong link with people in prisons themselves and their families so that we can help them inform the debate. And finally, we also speak to practitioners, frontline practitioners, prison leaders who are um providing that level of um uh management in prisons and probation so that we can influence them towards doing better work so that they ultimately improve the lives of the people that they're looking after. And the final strand is our research work, you know. So we uh have quite a strong research focus and our publications, our briefing reports, because they are so well triangulated, are really the medium through which we communicate to all of those people who work within the criminal justice system about what works, what doesn't work, what should happen, and the rigour of that research is what gives us our credibility.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, you can just listening to what you said, you can clearly see how important your work is and how much I'm sure they contribute to the lives of those currently in prison and coming out of prison. Do you feel and you were saying about how an important part of it is actually listening to those within prison and living and listening to those lived experiences.
Lived Experience Beyond Tokenism
SPEAKER_00Do you feel like those in charge of improving the welfare of offenders are sufficiently listening to their lived experiences?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's I mean, I think that in the time that I've been uh in the criminal justice system, things have got incrementally better. I think that there is uh an absolute recognition that people with lived experience need to inform the debate and influence the debate. Um, but I worry that at the moment those methods are slightly tokenistic, that they want it to happen, but they are not fully willing to engage in it uh in a meaningful way. So there is progress, I would say, but it needs there's so much more that can be done. Uh, I think that there are some uh really uh genuinely interested um practitioners, officials who want that voice to be stronger, um, but we don't practice what we preach, you know. So if we say that people with lived experience need to be employed, for example, when they're released, they need to have employment opportunities so that they can break the cycle of their re-offending. The first thing that the Ministry of Justice needs to do is to have a stronger pipeline of employing ex-offenders. I think that is one of the clearest signals that they that they are genuinely interested. And I know that there are risks that come with it, but risks are there to be managed. And so long as risks are managed in an appropriate way, there is no reason why people with lived experience uh can't be, you know, really meaningfully employed to shape the direction of travel.
Where The System Improves Or Fails
SPEAKER_00And do you do you feel that that the government, those, you know, the services that they provide, do you feel like they should include charities and voluntary organizations within their decisions and policy making?
SPEAKER_01Well, they do to some extent. I think that you know charities like the Prison Reform Trust are influential in in shaping policy, they are influential in shaping the the journey any kind of um legislation takes, because that's part of what we do. Um but at the end of the day, it it's quite it's it can be a bit piecemeal. So some in some cases it it works, in some cases it doesn't work, but um there there is an ambition to do that, but whether that follows through in the reality is a is a slightly different matter.
SPEAKER_00As someone who has seen the prison system from so many different angles, how do you feel that the criminal justice system has improved to women over the past decade? And where do you feel like it has fallen short?
SPEAKER_01So I think that prisons themselves, so so you've got the way that I see the criminal justice system, particularly in relation to women, but equally applies to men and children and young people, is three sections. So you've got pre-custody, you've got custody, and you've got post-custody. So in terms of what happens inside prisons, I think there have been improvements in terms of conditions, in terms of rights, in terms of staff and prisoner relationships, in terms of opportunities. So the standards have improved inside prison, um, not as much as they can. Uh, there's still lots to do, but they have improved in the last 27 years, that's without a shadow of a doubt. Um, and in terms of pre-custody, which is the stuff that I think is crucial in preventing people coming into prison in the first place, there's there is a lot more that can be done. I think that with the uh the women, the work of the Women's Justice Board and this government and their and their kind of uh ambition to divert more women away from custody, I think that there is more that has been done because we have got now a presumption against short sentences. The vast majority of women in the past would be given short sentences, and that's what made up the population of the women's uh prisons. But with this presumption, it means that more women will be diverted away, which means that they are more likely to get suspended sentences, deferred sentences, or community sentences, and that's good. Um, and the legislation will help that happen. Um, but the problem is that you have to invest in those alternatives. So simply saying that women will get uh a diverted, uh deferred sentence or a suspended sentence or community sentence isn't enough. What you need to do is invest in the services, the wraparound services that women need in order to make that more meaningful, because otherwise women will will not succeed in those spaces, and then they they will you know either re-offend because then their underlying issues are not being addressed, uh, whether that's mental health or substance misuse or family relations or um or you know whatever conditions has led them to their offending. You have to really meaningfully have a whole system approach in the community in order to really stop that person re-offending. So those investments need to happen, and it's the same post-custody. So when a woman has been given a custodial sentence, um, there needs to be a lot of care and planning taking place about what happens on release. You know, so many women are being released without housing, and you can imagine that if someone is being released without any supported or safe housing on release, they are they're back to being in a chaotic life, and that then leads them to kind of re-reiterate the cycle of re-offending. So I think that what it's a very long answer, but what I'm saying is that yes, they have been improvements, however, you have to really go back to basics and and build from the foundation up, you have to invest in services that are um there to prevent women going into custody, and unless you do that, you're going to see the pattern reappear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, you were talking about uh sort of the consequences of rough on crime approaches.
Redesigning Justice With Early Help
SPEAKER_00If we were to look at alternatives to custody and prison defiances, if you could redesign the system from scratch, what would you think would work best for women?
SPEAKER_01I think if I could redefine the system, the first thing I would do is, you know, first thing is early intervention. So what investment is being made at kind of preschool level to identify vulnerability and how are we managing and and looking after children at that stage, whether they're boys or girls, because that's kind of where everything starts, right? That will be my first step. But along the pipeline, it's kind of looking at what are the opportunities you have at every step of the way to prevent someone getting into the trap of offending in the first place. And then if if all of those gates have not worked for whatever reason, the real investment needs to be in those early, those kind of um community uh uh kind of opportunities. So, what is being done to provide meaningful housing, safe housing for women? A lot of women have experienced domestic violence in their homes, and it's kind of what alternatives are there for them? So bricks and mortar alternatives, but that in itself is not enough. What wraparound support does that woman need? Do they have substance misuse problems? Do they have mental health problems? Do they need connecting with their children? Do they need secure employment? Do they need um proper sources of income so that they can sustain and be independent if they need to be? All of that needs to be addressed in a sort of meaningful way. So, what I would do is to make sure that the systems that provide that, and it has to be kind of holistic, the systems that provide that are fully resourced so that when a woman is at risk of um you know encountering uh contact with the criminal justice system, that they have suitable places for them to go so that they they that that help can be accessed at a much early point.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
Trauma Informed Practice And Trust
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah, you were talking about how um about intervening really early, and I think a lot of women that tend to go into crime do struggle with poverty, addiction, previous trauma. How do you feel like that sort of intersects with women's experiences when they're in the criminal justice system?
SPEAKER_01So that all of those experiences make you know make people very distrustful of authority. So if you've had a lifetime, especially if that journey started when you were a child, of being let down by professionals and being let down by the system, you are going to be uh suspicious of anyone who claims to help and then hasn't. And you also are risking re-traumatising individuals. So all of those um factors prevent meaningful engagement. And I think that you have to work really hard at making those spaces safe, psychologically safe and trauma-informed. We use the word trauma-informed quite um as a panacea, and people don't often understand what that really means. Essentially, it's about creating an environment for individuals where they feel psychologically safe and that you know that that is procedurally fair for them. So when they are interacting with the system, it is a it's it's a system that understands their individual needs and is doing doing all it can to minimize uh the triggers that people would face uh when they're when they're interacting with that system. And that doesn't happen uh well enough in a lot of spaces, it's kind of tokenistic and and and you Know, which is why people can can fail when they're in those systems because they don't trust them and they don't engage with them in the way that they could.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I think, yeah, you're it's very true. I think a lot of it it it just impacts a lot of mental health and sort of well-being. How what more do you think can be done to improve the mental health of women in prisons?
Mental Health Support Inside And Out
SPEAKER_01Well, women in prison, so there's two groups, right? So when you're in prison, it's a different set of things that you need to do. And when you're in the community, it's a different set of things that you need to do. So, you know, when you're talking about prevention, it's about what can be done in the community. And I think that comes with you know providing uh a psychologically informed environment, it's providing uh one-to-one um counseling and uh interventions that are about understanding the individual needs of that individual. So mental health treatment orders, drug treatment orders, these are really useful interventions that help the person really kind of get the support that they need to understand the sort of um, you know, the kind of reasons why they have uh committed the offences in the first place. And so if those interventions are well provided, then that stops or can prevent women from you know committing further crime and ending into custody. When they're in custody, you need good psychological interventions that are actually tailored to the needs of women. So what women need in terms of psychological help is often quite different from what men need. And part of what happens in custody is that you have interventions that are designed for men, and women are seen as a bit of an afterthought. So either they're not the right interventions for them, or they're not eligible for them, uh, or they, you know, they're not sensitive enough to the needs of women. So what you need to do in prison is that you need to design interventions that really address the bespoke needs of women. And to be fair, you do have uh a lot of very good, unique interventions that are happening inside custody within the women's estate that do address these needs. So there's a lot of learning that's taken place over the years that says that this intervention is quite uh tailored to the needs of women, and that's the kind of key word that they do need to be individualized and tailored to the needs of women.
Probation Pressures And Resettlement Gaps
SPEAKER_00If we focus on once they have left prison, once they're ready to set onto that new chapter, do you feel like there is adequate support for offenders once they have left prison?
SPEAKER_01Well, no, I think that that's that's part of the the kind of challenge, isn't it? So all of these services, which are free in post-custody, and we're talking about post-custody now, are very dependent on a highly well-functioning and a well-resourced probation system. And it's a sort of interplay between probation and the third and voluntary sector, and they're they're the organizations that provide that support post-custody. And what isn't happening is that you you have currently within the probation system, you have uh a real staff issue. You've got too few staff, you've got the staff that do exist having enormous workloads, and you are getting you're at risk of being part of a system that becomes very process-oriented. It's very much about kind of um a sort of tick box process that uh as a way of managing people as opposed to a relational uh way of managing people, because after all, you do need to be able to understand the individual that you're trying to help, right? And if you don't have the time and you're busy and you're rushed, and you you you know you you you're kind of um overwhelmed by by by the work that you're doing, you're not going to be able to do that. And sometimes so the problem becomes twofold. One is that you're not having sufficient time to plan what this person might need. So the plans are quite piecemeal. And then the second is that when they do come out, you don't have the time to to really build that relationship and provide the support that people need. And and in kind of um with with people who've committed uh offenses, you've got two types of risk. One is the risk that they will re-offend, and the other is the is their need. You know, so when you have people who've got low risks but they've got high levels of need, they need a different kind of support package to those who are high risk of offending. And all our attention or all the attention of the practitioners goes in helping to try and manage the highest risk of offending, but not necessarily the highest need. And the problem with that is that when people have their needs are unmet, they're they're likely to re-offend and they become prolific offenders because their needs are not met.
Priorities Now Sentencing And Conditions
SPEAKER_00So, what do you feel are the main focuses uh right now that you're focusing on between in the criminal justice system to try and sort of weave out and sort out?
SPEAKER_01Well, we I mean it's it's going back to our aims as a charity, you know. So we we want we we kind of um believe that fewer people should be in prison, that that that whenever possible, the opportunities, uh the the kind of outcomes for uh the offences that people have committed need to just try and sit at the lowest level. So where it is uh you know indicated that they should get community sentences, and when they're in the community, that those community resources are well well resourced, when they're in prison, that they get the interventions that they need, that the conditions that they are that they live in are humane and decent, and when they get released, that there's opportunities for rehabilitation, whether that is um meaningful employment, uh safe housing, um uh, you know, whether their mental health and substance misuse needs are addressed. You know, so all of those um kind of things across the justice system is what we advocate for as a charity, and and that's what we will sort of continue to do. And and our focus right now is is on you know the Sentencing Act, because the Sentencing Act has been a really important lever for us to try and uh realize one of those aims, which is that you have you know divert people away from custody and it and and you know provide them interventions and support in the community. And and the other bit is is that we continue to fight for better conditions and better rights for people who are who are in custody right now.
SPEAKER_00Would you say there's anything in particular? Uh like so, for example, our charity was focusing on how women with cancer are treated within the within prisons, or how women who are pregnant have the maternity care, how it's lacking there, or what is there anything in particular that you're focusing on? Is it or is it just as a whole?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that we we focus on it as a whole, but you know, our our sort of you know, our mission as far as women are concerned is always about having fewer women in custody and and definitely about um the fact that pregnant women uh that shouldn't shouldn't be in custody, uh, and that you know it's it's kind of I think taking a global view about what what happens, so long as the aims are are are are kind of clear, we we continue to fight the cases as they as they come along. So if if it is about uh you know poor conditions, we will we will we see that as something that we want to get behind. If it is about um uh you know long sentences and people getting longer and longer sentences, that's something that we would fight for. If it is about the fact that people are kept in poor conditions, that's something that we would fight for. If it is that people are not being treated fairly or uh humanely, that's something that we would fight for. So it's it's kind of the the the the the kind of um the the the reasons why we might interact with something would get triggered as soon as any of those aims are are kind of fall short.
Media Blind Spots And Public Action
SPEAKER_00Is there anything that you feel like journalists or the media do not ask enough about or don't do not show more about regarding women in prison?
SPEAKER_01Well, if it's about women in prison, I think that you know I think that there is generally more compassion uh for for women because there is finally a recognization and a realization that women uh are often victims of worse crimes than they have this that they find themselves in prison for. Uh and that, you know, it's a societal issue that you know we need to uh make sure that women are uh protected and and harm to women is prevented. So the sort of violence against women and girls is a really, really important agenda, and I think that the media need to get behind it, but make the connection between um the violence that women experience uh and and how that has an impact on the kinds of women that end up in the criminal justice system. So a greater awareness of the link between those two, and with that, greater awareness of what needs to be done to support women away uh and divert women away from custody.
SPEAKER_00Now, finally, what do you feel like listeners can do to contribute to yours and our sort of charity's cause and our aims?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the first thing that people need to do is to get activated, is is to care. You know, so amongst all of the issues that are that we're we're kind of bombarded with, you know, whether it's poor health services or poor education services or poor local amenities, um, you know, it's it's a it's a competition, isn't it, to say, well, what gets our attention? But I think the important thing for the general public is to kind of know that if they want to be part of safer communities, and everyone does, it's very, it's kind of almost number one in the agenda, that people want to feel safe for around where they live and they want to be able to have their freedoms. And the route, one of one of the clearest routes to having safer communities is also having a kind of well-functioning criminal justice system. And unless you are treating people who have committed crime in a way that allows them the opportunity to change their lives and to get a reset in their lives and to lead law-abiding lives, you have to invest in that criminal justice system. And whether that's you know, all the way through, whether it's kind of better and more efficient policing or better and more efficient court systems or a better and more efficient probation system or a more efficient prison system, all of these contribute to safer communities. And when you lose interest in how that system works, you then prevent um, you know, the opportunity that these systems play in um creating um you know fewer reasons why people would commit crime. So when you are in prison, you you are provided with an opportunity to reset your lives, and you have the opportunity when you come out to be better neighbours. And the public need to make that connection that unless you have a high-functioning criminal justice system, you're not going to get people that come out of that system uh being better neighbors, and and that stops people from you know creating more harm in the community. So it's about taking an interest in it in the first place. And so I would say read up about it, you know, when there is an item on the news about it, take an interest to see and hear what people are saying. And there is a lot that goes on in communities that actually work, um, you know, whether it's the voluntary sector or um or the statutory sector, you know, find out what is going on in your local community that helps uh support your local prison, for example. And there might be opportunities to volunteer and and kind of see what you could do. If you're an employer, then then have a look to see whether you would, you know, employ someone who has come out of prison. And it feels like a high risk strategy, but you know, you've seen with the work that Timpsons have done and Iceland have done and Greggs have done, they they are now employees, employers that actually take on people that are that have been affected by the criminal justice system. So, you know, you can make a difference by by kind of being more engaged in the system, you know, find out who your local MP is and and you know, campaign on behalf of the rights of people that are uh trapped in the criminal justice system. So it's all about you know making what is a very hidden system, which is the prison system, become a bit more kind of visible to the world. And and I think that if you you know you people might kind of say, well, people need to be punished and they've committed a crime, they need to be punished. Yes, they need to face consequences for things that they've done, but if you want them to come out of that system as people who are uh not going to commit more crime, you have to, you know, take an interest in in their lives and in and be invested in that as well.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much, Pierre, for coming on. I mean, it's been amazing having you and just to have your insight has also been incredible. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.