Episode 8: Capturing Personality in a Portrait

The VIEW Magazine CiC 

Presents

Rebel Justice Podcasts : Episode 8: Capturing Personality in a Portrait 

Description:

Clare Barstowe speaks to some of the photographers and subjects in our  Someone’s Daughter campaign, sharing their experiences  on how they worked and supported each other during the photo shoot. 

Someone’s Daughter is a visual portal that gives the viewer access to the reality of the criminal justice system, which is more punitive and harmful towards women. 

Episode 8 focuses on women photographers Felicity Crawshawe, Emily Garthwaite, Kristina Varaksina and portrait subject Jennifer Joseph. The beginning of the podcast focuses on making a subject comfortable when they were all meeting for the first time. They spoke about duty of  care and letting  the subject lead the way in a photoshoot. That way, the subject feels comfortable and relaxed, so both the subject and photographer can both tell a story.

Portrait subject Jennifer Joseph, highlights the issues women  face in the criminal justice system. Jennifer tells her experience of being incarcerated and how women face many burdens once out of the system that formerly incarcerated men do not face. 

Felicity, Emily, Kristina  and Jennifer all share how essential it is to platform minority groups of women, especially photography. Photographer Emily explains  how women are afraid to speak up and prove their worth in this industry so that when she has the chance, she tries as hard as possible to make sure all women can be at a photoshoot or  an art gallery. The conversation concludes with encouragement , that all photographers  should go out and explore the world because people have amazing stories to tell.

Highlights and Minutes 

Felicity, Emily, and Kristina agree that it is significant to get the subject to share her stories and form a connection on and off camera (10:47). Emily states, "It will always be tricky if you can't relate, but you can always relate on a human level (12:20).” 

Model Jennifer then talked about her lived experience in the criminal justice system and stated, "I am somebody's daughter, and I have daughters (14:10)." Jennifer explains the difficulties of leaving her daughters as she was incarcerated and how vulnerable it made her feel (15:20). Jennifer mentions, "We are defined by the stories we tell others, and we tell ourselves," and she hopes one day women will not be defined this way (17:20). Kristina mentioned how a woman might not have a support system in their life, so, therefore, seeing an image and story of a woman going through a similar situation could be empowering and make them feel less alone (20:20). 

Jennifer mentions how any platform that steps up to reform the criminal justice system is essential (26:07). Jennifer discusses how women walk away with the more immense burden from prison. "If you ask 100 people about prison, 99 of them will tell you about a man, none of them could tell you about women, Yet if a woman is with a man and he gets her into legal trouble, she comes out the worst of it (27:25).” Jennifer talks about how there needs to be a better transition from leaving prison to going back to their communities (30:20).

Felicity, Emily, Kristina, and Jennifer then talk about the importance of mental health and how photography can help mental health (34:10). Kristina discusses how people need to hear these stories people have gone through and feel supported themselves (35:12). Felicity discusses how women photographers need to stand up more for themselves in a male-dominated field (37:47). The convers

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We want to change the way you see justice. Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice podcast. This is the eighth podcast in the series about our campaign, someone's daughter. In today's episode, Claire Barstow speaks to some of the world famous photographers and subjects who have taken part in our someone's daughter campaign, sharing their experiences on how they worked and supported each other during the photo shoot. Someone's daughter is a visual portal and gives the viewer access to the reality of the criminal justice system, which is more punitive and harmful towards women. We look at how photography and art can help women with traumatic intense experiences to reimagine and take back their narratives and what the photo shoots mean for both the photographers and the subjects. Listen carefully and hear their stories.

Speaker 2: 1:02

So I suppose we better kick this off then. So say we're having a discussion as part of Photo London and the View Magazine and the someone's daughter exhibition regarding how you capture personality in a portrait. And as, as an artist, not a photographer, identifying that I try with my portraits to try and capture them because I get to know the person over a period of time, but I understand with photographers sometimes you don't always get to spend that long with a subject. How do you feel about that, Felicity? How do you feel that you are able to get somebody's personality to come through?

Speaker 3: 1:40

Well, yeah, it's true. Cause particularly I'm thinking about these portraits. I mean, I was introduced to them over the email and then I had sort of a small amount of time to get to know them. I made sure I had a conversation with'em on the phone before I actually see them in person. So you sort of start building that relationship. But then actually really I spent an afternoon with both MM and Shali, which isn't a long time really to get to know somebody and to get to know their personality. So I suppose I make sure that I don't go in all guns blazing. I spend quite a lot of time with them just sitting with them talking. I mean, we sat for a good few hours or walked before we took any photographs, just so we could actually sort of start to get to know each other a little bit and understand a little bit about each other. And that's a two way thing because then you have to sort of try and build a little bit of confidence in you and make them feel very comfortable in your company very quickly. So I suppose that involves problem solving very quickly and keeping them involved in what you're doing. So when you do start to shoot, you know you're keeping them informed. You're talking through what you're doing. If you're having technical issues or you're waiting for a light window, you need to talk them through that and you allow them to be part of the process so that you can keep it a collaborative process. I think it's really important that portrait is collaborative because if you don't have that two way relationship, you're not gonna understand, you know, anything about them really. And you're gonna go in and sort of impose really your own style and your own technical decisions on them and not allow them to bring anything to the table. So I think collaboration's really important and just sort of how you conduct yourself prior to the shoot and during the shoot. Yeah, I think that was essentially it really in, in a very small amount of time. Cause ideally you'd actually get to know them properly, but I think you can, you can learn a lot about people very quickly if you're very open and honest and you sort of allow some really good conversation very early. And unfortunately I, you know, mm and chal are both really beautifully honest of me. You know, we discussed some really important issues very quickly and they wanted to know my feedback and my opinion and that really helps.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Okay, that's great. As a model, Jennifer, how did you feel that the photographer was able to capture your personality? How do you think it came through in the, in the photograph?

Speaker 4: 3:56

I think both myself and Ben were quite excited cuz she actually done the shoot at the national. And ideally we would like to have gone inside and probably done it around a few places, but obviously there's protocols so we couldn't do that. But what she captured outside, just around the buildings was, I felt really powerful because I hate pictures as everybody, I never looked how I wanna look in a picture, but somehow without much introduction or getting to know each other, Billy was able to just do her thing. She made me look like I knew what I was doing and thankfully she knew what she was doing. So personally, I think she was able to bring out a good quality, a calm side, a calm looking side to me, regardless of all the trauma and traumatic that you go through, you're standing there now in that moment and you're able to excel. For me, that was enjoyable. I hope Billy found it enjoyable and I wasn't too difficult that she basically told me what to do and then I did it<laugh>. So I was happy with that.

Speaker 2: 5:02

Oh, that's good to hear. Emily, I know that obviously you and me have had a a luxury of getting to know each other over a much longer period of time. But on the general discussion, I mean, you can talk about both maybe somebody who've known quite a while like me and also maybe somebody who just meet for a short time and then have to take the picture. How do you think it's possible to capture that moment?

Speaker 5: 5:25

I, I've always found that there's great freedom and natural spaces. So if I, if I do have the opportunity to meet someone in green spaces, that will be an absolute priority. And I know for you, for example, that we spoke a lot about Mother Gaia and your connection to kind of feminine energy and nature and those are the things I really like to dig into when I first meet someone. And when we first met, I think we met in a cafe Yes. In North London. We didn't talk about any of that. That was more of a, like, this is me and, and this is me, and we had this conversation, but the next time we met up was in Hamstead Heath. And I remember we just laid on the grass for hours and just had a chat. And I, I did take two photographs of you<laugh>, but it took time.<laugh>, we mostly were swimming and chatting. Yeah. Uh, and you told me some hysterical stories, but I think I've been very fortunate in my job that I've been allowed to develop long term relationships with the people that I photograph. And then with other jobs, if I am meeting someone and I know I've only got an afternoon with them, or even sometimes it's just half an hour, 15 minutes, I mean, the first thing I do is just be kind of utterly vulnerable, be quite quiet, try to get a sense of what someone's natural kind of resting heartbeat is. Like how do they feel in a, in a social environment and make that as comfortable as possible. And all of my stories tend to focus on, on women anyway. And, and sometimes in very conservative communities and you know, the majority of women that I work through have been through, you know, enough, they really don't need the stress of being photographed as well. So I want to make sure that it's something that people will remember and, and they'll say, we took that photograph and I had a really lovely day. And I think that's a really simple premise, I think to have as a photographer and artist

Speaker 2: 7:10

With your work in I Iraq and Iran, you know, you obviously have taken some photographs and some very challenging circumstances and obviously there's been challenges regarding restrictions on maybe some of the women that you photographed. But were you, in those conditions, were you still able to connect enough to get their personality across in the image?

Speaker 5: 7:31

Always? Um, intimacy is so important. You have to get a real sense of what intimacy is for each person. So I mean, I, I've worked with a lot of survivors of sexual violence, for example. So being in a space where it's just two women and, um, letting them lead exactly how close they would like you to get, how they would like to be photographed, really showing them the screen, showing the image that's being made. And I talk to women a lot about being strong. So in a lot of those pictures it's about keeping the chin up and the shoulders back and really understanding your form. I feel like women can sometimes lose sense of the strength in their body. And actually when we hold ourselves, it's amazing how differently you look in a photograph. So photography is an opportunity for a lot of women to reimagine themselves, um, as they actually are. But perhaps the parts of themselves that they might have lost touch with, which I think is the same for painting as well. And the arts, it's, it's about sometimes retting the views and the visions that we sometimes lose sight of.

Speaker 2: 8:33

Yes, yes. Absolutely. And the, Christina, have you been to the exhibition yet?

Speaker 6: 8:38

Uh, yeah, I'm excited. I'm gonna go right after the start today.

Speaker 2: 8:42

Okay. How do you think from your perspective, it's, it's possible to get somebody's personality through in an image?

Speaker 6: 8:50

First of all, it's incredible the amount of work that you guys have done on your end. You know, collecting all the photographers together and all the subjects and putting this whole amazing body of work together. It's, it's just really incredible. And when I looked at all the photographs, it's so interesting to see how each photographer approached photographing their subject in their own way. And I think every time you photograph someone, it's uh, just the ethnicity said it's, um, collaboration, it's collaborative process. So you are striving to feature their personality, their understanding of themselves, but also your understanding of them. And, uh, you personal touch your personal look at the world, not just at this person, but you know, in general how you experience the world, the thing you, you see, the thing that you know that seem important to you, what you want to focus on. These are the things you're gonna be kind of looking at when you are interacting with this person. And to me, for example, what is always important is empathy and just talking to someone. It doesn't matter where they come from, what they've been through. I still think that, you know, every person deserve empathy and deserves to be shown with dignity and giving them that respect and giving them that space to, to open up to the camera, to, you know, to have an equal conversation. And sometimes I show my vulnerability as well. I could share my own story, stuff that I've been through or I try to find that point of connection and I try to have that honest conversation and see, you know, when they start opening up, when they start trusting me. And that's, that's the moment that I'm kind of looking for every time. And if it, if it happens, I'm very grateful.

Speaker 2: 10:43

Do you find that if you find some kind of connection and a bond, you know, sometimes you can produce something magical, do you think that's something you find really rewarding as a whole experience?

Speaker 6: 10:53

It's incredibly rewarding. You know, photo shoots can be quite therapeutic for both the photographer and the subject because you're talking about their life experiences and also, like Emily was saying, you know, it's their new experience of their own body, how they feel themselves, you know, shoulders down, chin up, how they, you know, start I guess reforming their body or restructuring their understanding of themselves physically. But also mentally when you talk through all these experiences and you see them, you know, maybe finding out something new about themselves or they see that you, you hear them, you understand them, that you can relate to their experience and you supporting them, you know, they, they see that they are getting empowered and you're getting empowered by it. It's incredibly not only empowering experience but also yeah, you feel incredibly energized. You want to do more and you want to keep going. As a photographer it's, you know, it's very inspiring moment when it happens.

Speaker 2: 11:53

Yeah, that's absolutely. And Felicity, do you feel that if you are working with women or particularly subjects that have been through very difficult circumstances, do you find that it's sometimes harder to get a real understanding and trying to convey that? Do you think that can be a bit of a barrier or a challenge or is it something that you can relate to in, on some level? So

Speaker 3: 12:18

This is always gonna be tricky if, if you know that you can't relate necessarily on the subjects or what they've been through. But I think you can always relate just on a human level, you can always understand people, you know, as long as you listen carefully and you hear their story and you allow them to communicate as much or as little as they want to, you know, you don't push or you don't pry, you just allow them to just talk to you really, cuz Yeah, I think I, I mean I love that about portrait photography. I love meeting people and I love listening to them and and hearing their stories. And I think if you can just, uh, allow them to, to tell you as much or as little as they want to, no, I don't, I don't think it can be a barrier. I think it can actually really kind of take a shoot in a different direction that, that you might not have necessarily predicted. And that can be, you know, really beneficial to the, the process and the outcome as long as you do respond to that. It's a bit like what I was talking about earlier, sort of not going in there or guns blazing and sort of, cause you have to prepare as much as possible, but if you go in there with a, a very rigid outcome where what you want to get from it, you're not gonna be open to their vulnerabilities and their stories and anything else that they might be able to give you and convey to you. And actually, you know, that can be really beautiful if you, if you can take a little bit extra and move in a different direction. So I don't, I think it's actually a, a positive thing and, and you can learn a lot from people as well. You know, I don't meet these people in everyday life. It's, it's really lovely to meet people and actually hear people's stories. I think that's a real privilege.

Speaker 2: 13:50

Yes, thank you. And uh, Jennifer, as somebody with lived experience, do you feel that it's important to have been part of this project and to have been photographed alongside women on different sides of the justice system?

Speaker 4: 14:05

Absolutely, a hundred percent. I mean, for me, I am somebody's daughter and I have daughters, so that was quite significant to me. And for what I went through, I obviously left my daughters out here in the world without me. So being where I was, I couldn't protect them and I felt quite vulnerable in that situation. Then finding, discovering clean break at the back of it. I know it's not about clean break, but I was able then to, to grow again, to, to take help, to be helped and to be put back out in the world and then pay forward for the help that I was given. So not only do I become stronger from it, but my daughters do as well. Not to say we've forgotten about what we went through, but we don't ponder on it. And I've had dinners with judges and mps and things like that and I've got really strong views on the criminal justice system. So for me it's always nice to speak to somebody from that side of the track to let them know my views, which they find quite interesting cuz then I get invited to sit in at Har Magistrates or Crown Courts just to sit in on cases with one of the youngest judges to preside over a, a courthouse in England. Do you know what I mean? So for me, I, I think our views should be put out there because they need to be heard. The system is seriously flawed, especially towards women personally. When I went through what I went through, I was coming out of a domestic abusive relationship and as soon as it happened to me, I then had to incorporate back my abuser in order for my kids not to become statistics and put into the system and lose a home and all the things that women go through when they end up in trouble, whether it's through addiction, whether it's through criminal activities, whether it's through men,<laugh>, you know what I mean? So there's a lot of stories behind it and a lot of the things that we have to go through. So it's never ending it feels like. So you always regenerating, renewing, keeping alive where the system is actually flawed as somebody's daughters and our daughters.

Speaker 2: 16:25

Yes, yes, absolutely. I totally agree with you on what you're saying Emily. Do you find that working with women in particular, you actually can have a, an understanding and do you think you're then inspired with your work to try and take it further and take it down on a tangent from where you maybe originally planned because of something draws you that way?

Speaker 5: 16:50

As Thank you so much Jen for, for sharing your story and I think you're utterly remarkable pleasure

Speaker 4: 16:57

As well. Why do you

Speaker 5: 16:59

<laugh> what what you are talking about is, is so important? Firstly, the standards that women are held to are remarkably different to the standards men are held to. Uh, we are the first to fall and for some reason everyone sees us full, very, very hard. And we're also defined by the stories that people tell about us or we tell ourselves and um, forever reminded of a mistake or a moment of failure. And this, this just is pervasive in society. I love working with women because I don't believe that women should be defined by any experience. You know, whether you've been imprisoned, whether you have been um, a victim of domestic violence, whether you've been a survivor of domestic violence, whatever it might be. It's about how you change that narrative and empower yourself through it. So working with Claire who's not letting me focus on her<laugh> has seemed really important because a lot of people don't really talk about the relationship between the photographer and I mean the subject would, would dismiss the relationship that Claire and I have, which is one of the most important relationships I have in my life. We don't get to see each other so much cuz I live in a different country, but I think of Claire often we get to go swimming together, we talk about things that matter and my work has changed through working with Claire and the things that I'm interested in. And when I first met Claire many years ago, um, at that time I was sort of really transitioning in my work. I wanted my work to do something, I wanted to be involved in policy change and I didn't just want to make a piece of B art. I wanted to know that it could manifest into something greater than that and that it would be owned by Claire. This would be Claire's work to use. And I think the experience of photographing Claire was a lot kind of growing up for me because I was able to talk about my insecurities, which Claire is very familiar of and my worries about what am I photographing, Am I doing a good job? And sometimes your mentor will be your subject and in my case, you know, Claire is someone that's nurtured my work. The dynamic is not always what people expect it to be.

Speaker 2: 19:08

No, it's just been an absolute privilege, you know, working with you over these years and hopefully at some point we will get a book together about our experiences and know then everybody can read about,

Speaker 5: 19:20

It's basically a book of clan nude swimming. So<laugh>,

Speaker 2: 19:25

Well something different anyway.

Speaker 5: 19:28

Yeah, I think, I think it would be such a cool book. It would definitely grab people's attention.<laugh>. Oh yes.

Speaker 2: 19:34

Little ways than one we

Speaker 5: 19:35

Can do like calendar girls.

Speaker 2: 19:37

Oh yeah, maybe we'll have 12 images and we'll sell it for charity. Yeah, that's an idea. And Christina, the um, images in the exhibition, your images, everybody's images, do you think if people see them they might open the whole debate about the justice system more and it might make people think differently about how they see the justice system?

Speaker 6: 19:59

Um, I think any images can, can bring a new perspective on seeing someone and get attention to a specific issue. And I think in this case what's really important is that we showing women who have been through such intense experiences in the life that, you know, not everyone has friends or acquaintances like that. So seeing their faces and listening and reading their stories, it's an important experience. It's an important experience on the personal level to everyone to be exposed to something that you're not maybe normally aware of. I think it develops us individually, but yes, you know, on a societal level just learning about all this issues and how the justice system is faulty and how it's built in a very unfair way under how many, you know, horrible issues there are. Um, I think it's very, very important to, to learn about it and to learn about it in this way, you know, through seeing people's faces, to seeing you visually compelling stories and beautiful work. And, and I like in the magazine when when you see the picture, when you see what new, you can actually read the story of the subject. I think it's, yeah, it is really, really important. And it also, as photographers, as visual communicators, I think it's also our job to contribute in however we can, you know, when it's not just text, you know, when there's, there's a very compelling image, you know, it's, it really can change someone's mind and someone's perspective on the issue.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Yes. And you, and do you think that seeing all the different personalities of the different women come through the, the images, having them alongside each other, do you think that really can maybe resonate in the sense that as I say, we are all someone's daughter and that it can make people see a different perspective of, of how things have things work?

Speaker 6: 21:59

Yeah, exactly. There's no like stereotypical image of a woman who have gone through this kind of experience. You know, they look different ages, you know, different backgrounds, different everything You can see that anyone can be in this situation could, could go through things like that. And I think, you know, it's a very, I guess kind of humbling experience because on the one hand you may be privileged but on the other hand you no one can be an exception. Like it can happen to anyone. And I think a realization of that, I think it's more important goal of this project. And you know, the, what you've done with this exhibition,

Speaker 2: 22:39

Felicity, what do you think the, I agree with you totally. And what do you think is the way forward from this exhibition? Do you think this taking part has changed you in, in some way as a photographer? And also do you think you could carry it forward and maybe working on other similar projects? Is that what you would like to do? I

Speaker 3: 22:58

Think on a personal level it's introduced me to a subject I actually knew very little about, which is, you know, really interesting for me and enlightening. So I think that's really interesting and I'll definitely be flooring that more, trying to understand that more. And it's a fascinating subject to continue with. I think the way forward for the project as a whole is just sharing this work with as many people as possible, which I think you're doing an incredible job of the organizer doing incredible job of, I think the more people that can read cuz I mean everybody I've spoken to cause I talk about my work a lot, I talk about it with friends and colleagues and everybody I've spoken to is, is similarly in the dark about a lot of these, specifically about these women's situation but about the, the subject as a whole. Um, and so, you know, I'm starting those conversations, you know, which is as important really as sharing the images. And I think the more you can share this work and you can engage in conversation about it, the more people will understand it and will perhaps try and get involved. And it can be a real force for change, uh, for photography when it's done in conjunction with conversation and sharing it. I mean it's really, it's, it's lovely to do the work but it's really important to get out there and, and it be visible. Um, cuz only then really can it spiral and it can grow as a, as a body and then it can shoot into new projects. You know, every photographer who's been involved in that can potentially take something from it, influence their own work, move into a different field. But it all feeds back to helping the, the cause as a whole. And everybody who comes to see that exhibition, I mean it was so busy in son's at house and everybody who comes and, and spends a bit of time and reads it, you know, they'll go away and maybe feed that. They might not be photographers, but perhaps they can engage with it in whatever discipline that they work in and, and they can sort of go on their own personal kinda crusade to try and help. I think the way that it was hung in someone's house is really interesting cause it's in a square and it's sort of, you know, well it's a semi circle really, but then Christine's pictures sort of close that square and it's, it's a real unity, you know, to how it's being hung. And I think that's really powerful and you can't help but be observed that, you know, every war you look at there, there's the stories and the faces and you want to engage with it. And uh, I think if that continues to happen and it's as cleverly done as that, I think it's can have no boundaries really.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Yeah, I totally agree with you. Jenna. What would you say that you've in particular taken from this whole experience and, you know, from your perspective as a model, how do you think it could be taken further and and developed on,

Speaker 4: 25:35

Well, for a start, for the, from the sounds of it, I agree with what everyone's saying, but the way it's hung sounds like a chorus. And chorus is very much a unity of one voice saying the same thing. Do you know what I mean? I think for me, with the criminal justice system, I'm frustrated with it because these are the arguments of today and yesterday they've been talking about these things from time and memorial and nothing seems to have changed. So any new platform that can be developed regarding this system, the criminal justice system, and now we've got social media and things like that, I'm hoping that it would help it to evolve into something that gets something done about as a, we can talk about it all day, but unless you see some sort of change, then what's the point? It's almost like we would be in a dead horse, like somebody needs to be listening. Um, cause what I quickly found being on the other side, because I'm, I mean I'm, I'm not a career criminal, do you know what I mean? I never set out to get myself into any trouble. I I was an accountant, I worked in the house as a parliament, do you know what I mean? So coming on this side of it, it helped to open my eyes. Even being inside, it's like I'm going through my own tragedy, but as I'm going through it, I'm seeing younger girls coming in and their tragedy seems so much more out there. Like, you are young, still growing, you need a path, you need some learning. So I did a project, um, a while back with a guy called Soul and it was a stimulation of a prison inside apartment stores. So he'd get a little corner and he built a, a exact replica of a prison. Through that experience is when I realized that if you asked a hundred people about prison, 99 of them will tell you about a man. None of them can tell you about a woman, but yet if a woman is with a man that in Invis there to get into trouble, she's the one who comes out the worst of it. So I totally have to agree with what the panelists are saying. So he walks away with a bit of a bird, nothing lost, she walks away with probably a bigger bird, kids lost home loss, and then she's gotta come out and then she's still got that struggle of getting back the kids, getting a home, getting stabilized. I mean, come on, it's an absolute joke. Do you know what I mean? And then the money that they're investing to put us into prison, imagine they could give us, um, give most of the women out there some life skill training and still have changed to do something more constructive. So I'm hoping that this platform, it makes something happen. I mean, I'd love talking about it and I love shining a light on it, but I want, what I really wanna see is, is something happening, they closed down Holloway, but not to make it less women going to prison, it just means they're putting women further away from London, further away from their family, further away from building a life again. So that's what I would like to see of this platform, to evolve it and open more eyes, let people listen, not just watch and hear. I need them to listen.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right what you're saying, everything you've said, um, everything everybody said is just spot on really. Emily, do you think, well, having had, um, uh, this experience of, of working with somebody with lived experience, do you think it can inform your work in a new way in the future?

Speaker 5: 29:11

Oh, of course. I mean, met you, I met CJ and Jean at St. Charles's Trust. I've met countless remarkable men and women. I think the, the real shift for me, and I think other panelists have discussed it coming into this project, I remember the first time that I began to learn about what was actually happening inside presence for women. And I think there was a report that was released, and this is years ago, and I might have this wrong, but I I think it said the majority of women serve a six month sentence whilst it was significantly longer. So that means that, that women were being sent to prison for six months, which involved their children invariably being put into foster care because the fathers were not often deemed suitable enough as carers whilst the other way around. The mothers would always be responsible to take for taking on the kids and then they'd only be inside for six months and have their lives turned upside down and then spat up the other end and expected to just carry on as usual. So I mean, the very systems in place for, for women in prison I, I don't think are conducive to the welfare of kids or women. There's a much better system that could be in place and should be in place. Um, and that's what I learned, um, from meeting, you know, so many remarkable women. And I also remember, um, you know, just chatting to a lot of the staff and people saying, Yeah, but remember the women you are meeting are the ones that are really thriving. They are not always representative of the entire women's, um, population. People that are leaving prison. You know, you are meeting the women that clawed their way out and have really, really, you know, seized every opportunity if you are very, if you have low self-esteem, if you are leaving prison and your, your ex-partner who uh, if there was any kind of domestic violence is still out there, you know, you are leading prison and you are returning to a more vulnerable place than if you were in prison. So I'm aware that I'm on a panel with exceptional women as well, that, that in many ways, you know, you almost aren't representative of it. You're, you are the, you know, you are the women that have come out the top and that's why it's so important, I think to keep the two of you on on loud speaker, everyone should be listening to what you are saying, not just the general public, but women who have come outta prison. Cuz I, I want them to know that there's, there's a way out and um, I think perhaps what I've been hearing from a lot of women that I've spoken to is that once you're in, you're in, but really the hardest thing is coming out, um, and making sure that transition is as comfortable as possible. And I think the other thing through this exhibition, cause I've you know, chatted to a lot of people about it, um, I'd just been saying to people at 99% of people leave prison. So these are not people that you are never going to see again. They are part of society. Yeah. And if you really believe in the criminal justice system, you have to believe that if someone serves their time, they have served their time and when they leave prison, they carry on their life. So that's what I've really been kind of pushing at people who have had these sort of, these reservations that they're probably not entirely sure why they have them cuz they haven't even read, read about the criminal justice system. They don't really know what's going on, but it's just an inherent bias where they say like, no, they should just stay in there. But everyone's got a story and everyone is serving their time. And we have to believe that whilst we know there are many issues with the criminal justice system, we have to believe that when someone has finished their time, they have finished their time and they go back to go back to society and they should be welcomed in.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Oh yeah. And hopefully the fact that say all these, um, images of the, of different people on different sides of criminal justice and the fact they all stand together with the different personalities that are coming out, maybe that shows that, you know, there is some connection there and the the divide, you know, it doesn't have to be um,

Speaker 5: 33:08

Too defining.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Yeah,

Speaker 5: 33:10

It doesn't, But the most interesting thing about you, Claire, is the fact that you like going, uh, nude swimming thought, like that's much more reflective of you. I mean, we didn't even talk, I think I asked you about your story like two years in, do you remember at the Tape Modern? And I was like, I haven't really asked<laugh>, did you have a chat about this? No, that's a story in itself. That's brilliant. I love that.

Speaker 2: 33:35

Well we

Speaker 5: 33:37

Just, there's to, there's more to everyone than, than having gone to prison. I think<laugh>, you're p

Speaker 2: 33:44

It's amazing you can about people's personalities and, and, and that comes through, you know, literally speaking cases,<laugh> facts, say<laugh>,

Speaker 5: 33:58

You did they<laugh>.

Speaker 2: 34:01

And um, Christina, do you think, do you think, cause obviously the View Magazine and someone's daughter, there's also links with, um, mental health and do you think that's sometimes showing people who undergone mental health issues on every side of the fence and and women's mental health, do you think that's something that people can maybe, uh, learn more about and maybe photography can bring that out more?

Speaker 6: 34:24

Yeah, definitely. And I think this project actually particularly inspired me, or at least it gave me some ideas to further explore definitely, um, mental issues and mental health with women, but also maybe with everyone. I think it's not really spoken about enough and it's, you know, it's kind of like kept under the rug, you know, if someone is dealing with mental health issues still stigmatize you, you don't want to hear about it or you want to share that. It's very, yeah, it's a very shameful, I guess, aspect of your life that you don't want to, many people don't want to share, but it's important to talk about it because people need to hear the stories and they need to feel supported by showing it again, with, with dignity, with empathy I think is another, another thing, uh, for, for the photographer to, to keep in mind. And yeah, I'm definitely considering now and this whole being involved in, in the Someone's daughter project, I think it's changed my perspective. It added some things to how I see, you know, the world in general, the criminal justice, um, women as well. I couldn't, I couldn't even realize that women could be so strong. Like, for example, meeting Sam, who I photographed who who also, you know, went, went to prison for, you know, for being together with the wrong men basically. Yeah, exactly. Very, very similar to your story Jennifer. And so, but she's so, I mean such an inspiring, such a strong person and how she, she was able to get another degree while she was there and like she turned her life completely around that, that story is very, very inspiring and that changed my perspective on so many things as well. And I could see, you know, that yeah I could sh I could do so much more with this and I can definitely, my work involved and I can definitely shoot more and, uh, tell more stories, mental health or other stories, you know, with people going through a lot of stuff in their life basically. And then, uh, showing other people that this, you know, you are not alone, you know, whatever you're going through, whatever you're battling, you're not alone. Uh, there will be people to, to support you, the people who've gone through a similar thing and you know, it shouldn't be stigmatized. You shouldn't be ashamed of it.

Speaker 2: 36:52

No, absolutely. A hundred percent. Uh, Felicity this whole debate about women getting representation in photography, I mean in art, women are vastly unrepresented in most of the galleries in the country. Is that true in photography as well or do you think there's a it's more fair.

Speaker 3: 37:13

It's an interesting and sort of ongoing debate, um, and something we talk about quite a lot. It, it's sort of, it's hard to work. I mean definitely the statistics show there are, there are less women working and while certain fields of photography, you know, there's some aspects where it is a little bit more equal. But you know, particularly in, yeah, in in a lot of the industries I'm so there, they're definitely less women working in it. Um, and less represented. It, it's difficult to work out whether there, there are less women or whether they're just not shouting as loudly or not as vi visible or don't, you know, they don't push themselves forward or, or seek out those platforms to get their work shown or, you know, so it is difficult to work out if the statistics are completely accurate cuz I definitely didn't use to shout as loudly as my male colleagues. I, it just didn't come naturally to me. It's not in my nature or my personality. And I think that's typical of quite a lot of female colleagues I have. So statistics show definitely underrepresented, but it's, I think there are so many people trying to combat that now. They're trying to, you know, there's so many brilliant organizations, particularly in photography, you know, with F 22 and Equal Lens. There's so many brilliant organizations really doing what they can to rectify that and give women a platform. Cuz sometimes it is just giving them a voice rather than a, there is a, you know, you do need to encourage more people to get into it and stick in it as well. Particularly in photography, the statistics show that there's possibly more women graduating, you know, studying but not necessarily taking it any further. Um, so I suppose there, there does need to be work done as to why that's happening. I dunno whether, you know, whether they need more support at that stage or encouragement or what. But yeah, it's definitely changing. Um, and like I said, there are some incredible organizations doing a lot behind the scenes to do that.

Speaker 2: 39:06

Oh, that's good to hear. And Jennifer, do you think the diversity of subjects, um, as models, you know, if you go and see a, an exhibition or you see photographs in a magazine, do you think that every group of people are being represented or do you think there's certain groups that are still being left out?

Speaker 4: 39:25

Yeah, can you can see the change is trying to come, you know, it's taken a while, but being a woman, being a black woman, being a large black woman, do you know what I mean? All the odds are stacked against me. Do you know what I'm saying? So I feel like, um, for someone like myself, there's an always an extra fight and an extra push. And it's not just about me and color because the disabilities, mental health, all of those things need the same representation. I don't, I don't see that one needs more than the other. I just think we all, all of those categories need a push in able to be heard, to be noticed and to be taken seriously. I mean, I love the little things that are, are being implemented to say that, you know, that change is coming but you know, is it enough? You know, is it too little, too late? Can more be done? A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Hopefully with ladies, like the ladies I'm seeing today on the panel, I feel really proud and I feel blessed to be represented by voices like those that can help make a change, implement a change, show a change, and see where a change can be made. So yeah, most definitely. Most definitely.

Speaker 2: 40:46

That's good to hear. And Emily, uh, do you think that, um, cuz you do a lot, are your workers, uh, a lot of your workers abroad on the different communities you meet, do you think that there are certain communities that, uh, that never get to be seen or, I mean, I know you, you've taken it to a lot of different places, but you think there's still places that people should get, you know, go more into different communities to make it a more, you know, so more people can understand what's happening in the world and and about different cultures and communities?

Speaker 5: 41:18

Well, yeah, I mean I've had the opportunity, absolute privilege to travel as a woman photographer, as a white woman photographer,<laugh>. And I wanted to quickly point on being a, being a woman photographer. There are, there are difficulties and then there are systems in play that make life inherently easier for me as a photographer, when I started out, um, my parents bought my first camera, it's um, incredibly difficult career to get into. If you can't make the initial investment of buying the camera equipment and then you need a laptop with that and you need SD cards and then you might need a flash. And so the equipment alone is an investment. You also need to have someone who can guide you or mentor you invariably. Like if you've got some connections or someone else in the art world, um, it's a really, really hard career to get into. And so much of it is based on the fact that I'm a white woman. I've had access to spaces that, for example, so many of my colleagues, women of color, you know, I speak to them about, I just saw a friend of mine last night at an exhibition and she said to me like, You expect me to go to Iraq as a black woman? I don't think so. And we were just having this chat about it and I was like, she was saying, I'm, I, I feel more at home in other countries and that's where I'm gonna work. And you, you work in the places that you feel more comfortable in. So, so much of like Holly and my choices in our careers, and we've talked about it at length, have been based upon where we feel most comfortable. And the majority of spaces I've been let into, I've had to personally make sure that she is invited into them. So I think with like being a woman photographer, the responsibility is much more about making sure that other women are with me. So like for example, when I was invited to be part of this exhibition, the first thing I did was check that there are enough women of color photographers. So I sent a list of women photographers to the view who contacted them and I, I know that a number of them are in the exhibition. And then if we just did something with Sky Arts and I said like, I want to see the full list of the crew and I want to see the full list of the photographers. And so they had to fess up. There weren't any women of color, amazing, here's your solution, here's a list of women photographers. So it, it requires, like, it requires going an extra mile, but it doesn't actually take very long to change that system. So it's like now this TV show's gonna have three women of color in it, which is incredible in fashion and street photography and travel. So if you then have like young black women seeing that on tv, then it's suddenly a viable career an option. So it's about the visibility more than creating the platform. I think at the moment because I, I want to see those women, I want to know that they exist. And at the moment people don't know that there are this incredible group of women photographers. So I wanna point people in the direction of um, black women photographers.com and um, it's also got a very funny other names. If you search white male photographers.com, it directs you straight to black women photographers.com. So that gives you an amazing list. So if anyone is ever looking for, for any kind of women, you're amazing. Oh my gosh. And share that, share that website. But um, in terms of the travel question, yes of course I think that, um, people should travel and, and live with other communities and come to understand them but not exoticize them and fetishize them and use them as caricature or stereotypes. So with my work, I like to relive with people and get to know them and um, I love the mundane, the rituals that people have, which are remarkable to me cuz it'll be on a mountainside in the middle of nowhere, but to them it's the equivalent of brushing their teeth or making teeth. So I think a celebration of the mundane in what could be perceived as exotic spaces, um, so people can understand that there is really not much difference between us and them. And there shouldn't be the sense of the other, you know, we other a lot of communities. So I hope in my work it brings people a little bit closer to, to the people I live with and, um, that they could picture themselves in that situation and feel like it wasn't so far away.

Speaker 4: 45:36

Wow.

Speaker 5: 45:37

Thanks Jen. I've been cheerleader the whole way.<laugh>

Speaker 4: 45:44

Fan club right here. Trust. Yeah, I'm, yeah,

Speaker 2: 45:51

We should all applaud each other making work going on. And uh, Christina, do you find in your work some people are tempted to, to go down a stereotypical path? Or do you think things are more opening up and things are being seen in a different way and there's more diversification? Or do you think there's still issues?

Speaker 6: 46:13

Well, definitely there's more diversification right now in the industry. And I, you know, I, I do commercial photography, I do fashion beauty, and there's definitely more models involved to our, from all kinds of backgrounds, uh, all kinds of ethnicities, uh, cultures and things like that. You know, there used to be no Muslim models, for example. Uh, very few black models, you know, the industry is more welcoming now and I think it's the, you know, it's the best time now to, to, to start a career, for example, as an actor or as a, as a model of color, for example. It's, yeah, the industry I feel like it's in, it's incredibly welcoming. But again, like I'm speaking as a white woman, but you know, I can only see it from, from my position, you know, if there's a shoot or something project happening and we are, you know, uh, casting for models, um, I always try to include more diverse models and not only going for white Caucasian looking, uh, women. And also another thing is including older women is another thing that's been like my own personal goal to, to have more older women represented in, you know, visual media. It's another category that I think almost has no voice. Yeah. And I think it's important to, to understand that, you know, this is, this is the group of women that are practically invisible when you watch anything, when you see, you scroll Instagram or yeah, there's so many, so few of them. And, um, that's another category that I try to personally include. And, um, I wanted to also say thank you to Emily. I will definitely share the, the black women photographers link on my Instagram as well. And I, yeah, I always try to share, whenever I see any initiative like that happening, I always try to share and then bring more awareness to it.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Brilliant. Oh, well, I've really enjoyed, um, our conversation today. Is there anything anybody else would like to say before we wrap up about your experience or about the exhibition or what you'd like to see in the future?

Speaker 5: 48:26

Um, I'd love to ask, um, the other photographers, if you think you're gonna continue the relationship with the, the women you've been photographing

Speaker 3: 48:33

Have a little bit. Yeah, we have kept that, kept in touch. Um, so I hope so. Definitely, like I said, right, We only met for an afternoon each, but we got on really well and so yeah, I've kept in touch with both of them.

Speaker 6: 48:45

Yeah, I think I will too. And I, I really connected with Josie, um, the first woman I photographed, and, um, I think we'll definitely keep in touch and I hope we'll do something together again as well.

Speaker 2: 48:59

Well, thank you very much, all of you for coming along today for this discussion, and hopefully this'll inspire more women to take part in different projects and more diverse Yeah. More diversity in the future. And, um, it's been amazing to been involved and, and thank you so much for all your involvement and the work standing in the exhibition now. Thank you.

Speaker 4: 49:26

Thank you for this new platform, Claire. It's a, it's a massive thing and it's well worthy and thank you, thank you for having the insight to do it. Thank you,<laugh>. Appreciate that. Well,

Speaker 2: 49:41

Fantastic,

Speaker 4: 49:42

Strong, wonderful, powerful woman. Thank you so much for being on our side. I appreciate you, honestly, I'm grateful. Great.

Speaker 1: 49:51

This brings a close to our eighth podcast. Thank you so much, Christina, Jennifer, Emily, and Felicity for sharing your own stories and experiences with someone's daughter, which highlights issues faced by women in the justice system through art and photography campaigns like someone's daughter equalize, and show the human face of women from diverse backgrounds and with different lived experience. You can read their stories in the View magazine narratives and be inspired by constructive solutions. You can also go online and search for someone's daughter to see powerful women photographed by world renowned and acclaimed photographers. Someone's daughter is made possible by our sponsors int law, criminal defense and prison law specialists in the northeast of England and Garnica International Law Chambers bringing justice across the world where it is needed. Thank you so much for listening to this episode today and stay tuned for next weeks.