Episode 5: Can Women with Lived Experience Be Part of the Solution? - Part 3

The VIEW Magazine CiC 

Presents

Rebel Justice Podcasts : Episode 5: Can Women with Lived Experience Be Part of the Solution? - Part 3

Madalena speaks to  model and mental health campaigner Naomi Harlow, activist and former prisoner Clare Barstow, prison law solicitor and expert Rob Welsh - from our sponsors, Instalaw, a leading prison and criminal defence law firm - and former prisoner and one of the founders of The View, Farah Damji.

Today we conclude to look at whether women with lived experience can be part of the solution when it comes to effective policy and stopping the cycle of crime and reducing reoffending. 

With thanks to all our panellists and the many people who made Someone’s Daughter possible. The campaign continues, globally, so watch our social media for dates and further announcements.

© The View Magazine 2021

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the View Magazine's Rebel Justice Podcast. This podcast is part of our someone's daughter campaign, the campaign to change the way you see justice. This podcast was recorded during photo London in September, 2021. Photo London is an exceptional art and activism project where world famous and acclaimed photographers have taken photographs of women who have been involved in the criminal justice system. Some are survivors, some are lawyers, some are activists, and others are leading women in public life who have taken an interest in all the processes from charging and arrest from incarceration to rehabilitation. Today we bring you the third part of three of this podcast included in our Someone's Daughter podcast series. We will continue looking at whether women with lived experience can be part of the solution when it comes to effective policy in stopping the cycle of crime and reducing re-offending. Today's panel includes model and mental health campaigner, Naomi Harlow, activist and former prisoner, Claire Barstow, Prison law solicitor and expert Rob Welsh from our sponsors Insta Law, a leading prison and criminal defense law firm, and former prisoner, and one of the founders of The View Barra. Dmg. Thank you all for coming, Farra. I will bring you in first. Continuing from our previous conversation on this theme, in what areas do you think women with lived experience, the experts by experience would be most useful?

Speaker 2: 1:37

I don't know. I mean, worse as, you know, kind of being brutalized at the moment all over Twitter, um, with some trolling, which is very, I mean, I've never seen anything like it. It's just amazing. And I've gone through some stuff in my life. Um, so up until now, I always felt that we had a place that we, you know, our voices mattered and our experiences mattered. Um, and when you see how every single thing that we do is being picked apart by people who have no involvement, they're not stakeholders, they're not beneficiaries, they're not people we've ever met or had anything ever to do with. So we don't owe these people a breath of oxygen, you know, we don't owe them a piece of dust on the floor. Um, I'm, I'm just, I'm shocked, I'm horrified. I felt like I've had personally, you know, a target on my back. I know it's affected other people in the company. Someone has tried to kill herself this week and it's been sectioned, um, someone else's self harm so badly. You know, that this is not just, I'm very proud of what we do at The View, and I'm very proud of the people involved. And I think the commitment of the directors is, you know, Unsu surpassed their support for me through all of this has just been amazing. I offered to, to step back, they said, No, we're not gonna de platform. We're not gonna censor when it would've been the easy thing to do. Um, but I'm really horrified at how people who claim to be prominent people in society who, who have respected positions in the establishment, I'm just shocked how they think that they can target and kind of, um, vilify and ostracize. I'm not going anywhere. I know what we do makes a huge difference. I see the messages that we get from women who get the magazine in prison, from women who get sent it free, you know, in the community as well. We send out almost 2000 copies free of charge, which is a huge expense. Um, I know the difference we make and, and that makes me really even more committed to just dig my heels in and say, Go away. You've got nothing. You're not part of the future. You're a dinosaur. You're nothing to do with the future. You're feeling threatened because what we're calling for is radical reform and radical change. But it's, it's been very, the last couple of weeks have been, you know, incredibly hard and horrible, really horrible to have your every fantastic piece of publicity that comes out, you know, great articles in The Guardian and, and in independent and in in photo journals and stuff, you know, to be SubT tweeted and, and, and it, it just feels like violence and aggression and a lack of understanding that, except for, I think it's 70 people in the whole prison estate, were all coming out one day, and if you are going to continue to judge me and call me names and harass me and bully me, it's that thing about, you know, feeling the warmth of the village. What stake have I got in a society that's going to treat me like that? You know, why shouldn't I burn it down? Why shouldn't I commit crimes? Why shouldn't I harm people? Well, I won't cause I'm not that person anymore. But I think, I think words are so powerful. I think what we are doing is so powerful. I think the message is so strong, and obviously it's really, really got under their skin, um, because the message is so strong and it looks so incredible. I mean, I've only seen little films of it, but it just looks so beautiful and so incredible and so compelling. So I think there is a really important place for women with lived experience and men, and I think some of the people who are doing the best stuff, Um, this guy called Phil Martin who started the company, uh, internet era, and then there's Paula Harriet, who's worked at the Prison Reform Trust for a long time. And there's, you, you know, you've done so much. So I think the, the people who have so much to offer, if we're not gonna be given a place at the table, we'll make our own table. And, and what's happening is so destructive and so harmful and, and harming so many, so many people every year, this whole justice system as it is that it's not working and, and you, you can't keep on doing the same thing and pretending it's okay and spending hundreds of millions of pounds on it and ignoring solutions that, that we need to try that are working elsewhere. Um, because this, this whole sort of like trying to censor people and do you platform people and, and hurt people with your words and your tweets and stuff, it's very regressive. It's, it's just part of that system that, that, you know, that that it, it starts with the newspapers and the judges and then at what point, who gets to say when I've done my time and who gets to say that I'm rehabilitated and who gets to say, All right, she's fine. She can have a place at the table. Um, but you can't and you can't. And you can, you know who that's not Barr dozens listeners and whoever thinks that they can judge, it's it's society. And I think, I think we need to reframe this whole debate so it's much more inclusive. Um, but, you know, it is been, it's been a very, it's been harrowing few weeks around all of this recently.

Speaker 1: 6:58

Claire, do you agree?

Speaker 3: 7:01

Yes, absolutely. I I really think it's vital that, um, women get a say in, in, you know, should be more experts to experience. There should be more there, there should be, um, getting women, um, to talk out more about and, and to support other women more, you know, But it's almost like they, they'll go a little way and, um, but not the whole way. And I think they need to be braver in their decisions and be, you know, and, and to not be scared. You know, I'm always having, um, discussions with Ministry of Justice and, and other people and saying, Why don't you employ more experts to experience? Why don't charities have more, uh, people with lived experience on their, on their, um, boards? Um, you know, why are they scared to, to, to let, um, active men and women speak out about their experience? And I think if we can think about how, you know, we can take this forward, we need to be able to, you know, settle up a momentum. There's a lot of guilt and amazing women and men that have left prison and, you know, they end up doing either work that, that maybe they're not, they're doing for the sake of a job, but they'd be better off, um, engaging and helping other people start a fresh too and give them the tools and guidance through that.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Naomi, yes,

Speaker 4: 8:31

It really reminds me very much of, I mean, we've just had this, you know, this huge debate, haven't we, about, um, the abortion control, um, laws in Texas. And what keeps coming up every single time in that conversation is why is it men making decisions about women's bodies? Why is it white people making decisions about black people's lives? Why is it, why is it, uh, the rich making decisions about poor? And I think, think it's exactly the same thing, isn't it? Why is it people who have not had that experience, who don't understand, uh, the, the justice system who have just read about it in reports, never even necessarily visited? Why are they the ones making the decisions about what will best fit and best help the people who live, who are living through it? Um, and I think it's, it, the idea that that people who it affects directly don't have a place at the table is absolutely ludicrous in all of those instances, isn't it? Because you are not, you know, there's always these things that, oh, you, but you are making decisions from an emotional basis. We have to make them from, you know, what's fiscally viable? What's, what's economic, what's, what's this, what's that? But, but emotions matter, emotions are important because what we're talking about is people's emotions, human experience. So if we come in with our own angle and our own experience and say, This is how it felt me, this is what would help me. Let's try it. We're not saying, um, here's, here's this solution. This will definitely a hundred percent work. We're not saying that. We're saying we need to try. What we've got at the moment isn't working at all. So what is the harm in trying something that might work? What, what could possibly be worse than what we've got at the moment? Nobody needs to come in with a fully blown system that's gonna work within the first year if it was matching or slightly improving what we've already got. Surely that's a bonus. So this idea that unless it's completely definitely gonna work and everyone's gonna be turning over newly for the next year to 18 months, otherwise it's not worth bothering is, is ludicrous because what we're doing now isn't working, so why not just try, why not try something else? And there so many people have said in this discussion, uh, the reason is because it's not in people's interests to want things to change. It's not in people's interests to, um, want people who've lived through it to, to come in and say, Yeah, you know, it's, it's not like the Daily Mail says, We don't all have the hot tub and a an on suite bathroom. It's actually horrible. And this is happening and this is happening and this is not being done and this is not being done. And that's not in people's interest, is it? So I think, um, yeah, the idea that that decisions are being met made without people who could contribute from lived experiences, ludicrous.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Is there anything that you can add to that, Rob, other solutions you can think of that might help us go forward?

Speaker 5: 11:19

I think more and more activities like this need to continue because otherwise, any momentum which has been gained will simply stop. And there's a real risk of going backwards, um, with, with what is trying to be achieved. We know the government recently of, of being indicating that they want to create more spaces for women in prison, which is completely the opposite of what we're trying to achieve and, and, um, and, and, and move forward to. And so I think persistence and motivation and public awareness, maintaining that, um, it is key to achieving any formal change at all. Cause if, if we don't, and, and people like the View Magazine are, are no longer campaigning as they do so thoroughly, um, we'll be back to square one within a very short period of time. So yeah, that's, that's what I think and I think, uh, they should be congratulated for everything they've done so far, um, and encouraged to continue.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Yes. Farra, do you think trying to engage with sympathetic members of the government is a possible solution?

Speaker 2: 12:27

I think there are sympathetic people in government and, you know, the view has amazing support in, in both houses of, of Parliament. Um, I think, um, individual mps can be petitioned and, and actually if we all, it's a very, very simple act. If we all pick up a piece of paper and just write to the mp, local MP and say, Why is the government building 500 more prison places just to accommodate the increase in the number of women that will be arrested under this new, I think it's called the police and crime sentencing bill that's just been put through. Um, so they know they're going to arrest a massive amount more women, and they know that a massive amount more women are gonna come through the justice system. So they're actually building, they're like predicting, it's like Minority Report. They're predicting that they're gonna need these 500 more places, which is so sick. Um, it, it goes against their own stated policy, which is to reduce the number of women that were imprisoning. So very simple, logical acts. I think, you know, small steps can, can start to build some momentum. But, but I think that, I think just going back to what NAMI was saying, um, I think people have a view of how criminals should behave once they're outta prison. So we're supposed to be quiet, we're supposed to obey our license conditions and whatever ridiculousness is, you know, put on that. Um, we're supposed to just, just be sort of silent, observant, quasi citizens who've actually lost our rights. And then if some or the other charity decides to, um, platform whatever view they agree with that day, then we become the sort of pet criminal for that charity. The pet little, you know, post a child for that, for that charity. And I, I think how the view is different is it, is it truly platforms? We don't edit massively. We take up grammar and, you know, spelling and stuff like that, but we don't edit women's experiences, which is why it's so hard hitting, it's really hard to read about a woman's trauma. It's really, really hard to read the article by Sue Wheat Craft about how she had bipolar disorder and then was segregated for months and months at a time. And the psychiatrist said to her, Sue, my job here is not to treat you. My job is to keep you out of segregation. You know, and those things, I mean, if they don't, if they don't hurt when you read them, again, it's sort of facing people's traumas. So I think we have to, as individuals, take on our own responsibility for change in a wider movement. So whatever small steps we can take, I mean, you know, we have now at the View, I think we've got three and we're about to employ two more women with, um, lived experience. And, you know, again, if you are in a position where you can employ, where you can pay people for their, for their time and, and their value, you know, so small, small steps. It, it's doing the things that we're talking about. It's not just sort of, um, oh, this is a great campaign. Um, it, it's, there's so many things, there's so many small, small steps that, that we can take as individuals and, and I think it's kind of, it's, it's a movement that's going to it. We have to influence the policy makers and the lawmakers from the top, but I think we also have to come from the bottom and, and influence on kind of a grassroots level. So art is such a brilliant way of doing that. Um, art engages you, you know, viscerally you don't, there's no time between the time when you see the photograph and to make a judgment about the person cuz it captures you. Um, and so you are seeing a picture of Barness Kennedy and I can't remember the other one who he took, uh, I think it was Emily. Um, and, and in that moment, the, the judgment doesn't have a chance to sort of color your picture of that woman. So suddenly you see her framed as she is in her own world, in, you know, that, that face. So I think we need to do more things, as Rob was saying, we need to do more things to, to raise awareness about women's own experiences and, and that we're all, we've all gone through stuff. We've all come out of stuff, but, but we all, you know, our rights remain intact. Whatever we've done, even in prison, our rights aren't suddenly sort of snatched away because someone doesn't like what we did or, or how we look or because we did something and ended up in prison. Those rights are meant to stay intact and, and, and inviable. But when you come out prison, it's as if half your rights, half your freedom of expression, half your freedom of thought, half of your rights are just sort of, you know, alienated from you. And, and I think that's what we need to look at. Cuz that's a, it's a dangerous place to be in, in a society predicting 500 more places for women alienating a whole cohort's rights. I think it's really dangerous. I think they're dangerous steps that we're taking as a society. And we're, and we're sleep walking into this.

Speaker 1: 17:20

Yes. Naomi, do you think the last 18 months of the pandemic have held things back regarding the progress of employing experts by experience?

Speaker 4: 17:31

I, I think, well I think unfortunately it has taken back steps in terms of we've taken back steps in terms of mental health as a whole over the last 18 months. I think we've had a lot of, a lot of people's mental health has, um, has, uh, degraded over, over the last 18 months. Um, and as I say, I think there's a lot of work to be done around improvements to outcomes for, as I was saying, children who spent the last 18 months being at home without support and without all of the things that they were, that they should have been receiving through schools, um, because they just weren't there. I think. And I like to hope that it has made some way in, in making it more obvious what people live through and the difference between one child and another. So I like to think, and I'm hoping that it's made it, I think school can be something of a leveler. You know, the children come in a uniform and one of the reasons is that they, uh, they, they all in theory look the same. Um, so it doesn't, it doesn't make people stand out too much in terms of not having, um, you know, the latest genes or whatever it is. But when we have, when we have children in school all day, every day, teachers work extremely hard to keep all children relatively not at the same level because everybody is different, but to make sure those gaps are, um, are narrowed. Um, we keep the, we can keep, we keep them safe. We make sure that, you know, there might be pastoral support at school, there might be, uh, you know, the free school meals this year, the, um, the access to technology, the access to learning is, is all there for all children. And I'm hoping, as awful as it is in the 18 months, it's made it significantly more obvious that once that is taken out, the equation, the discrepancy and the disparity between one group of children over here, and this group of children over here is so, so phenomenal that we need to be making serious steps to, to find things other than just school to improve those outcomes. Um, so although it's, it's heartbreaking really to, to see some of the children that have come back and, and how it's affect them and how it's affected their learning and, and ultimately could affect their outcomes a lot is being done to, to catch them up, to support with them. Um, but I'm hoping that it will make, make some steps towards improving those disparities without just relying, Oh, they're all at school. So they're all, they're all being seen. That's what I'm hoping.

Speaker 1: 20:14

Wow. That sounds encouraging. Rob, do you think there's a way where we can build from where we left off and what can we learn from the last 18 months?

Speaker 5: 20:24

Yeah, I, I, well, I, I'm hoping that the entire country being in lockdown has given, um, some people, some, some greater empathy for, for, for prisoners as as a whole. Um, because then in some ways they've been experienced their own, um, you know, lockdowns and, and not been able to lead and so on and so forth. And so I'm, I'm hoping that that has played a, a part and I'm hoping that that will be able to, uh, encourage people, um, people in<inaudible> and places of, uh, influence, um, to, to realize what other people in prison are going through. You know, it's been some fascinating issues raised in, in the discussion today. And one of those, which is very important to me, has been this sense of identity, which has come through from, from both participants. Um, the sense of identity of people before they come to prison is extremely important. We've heard of education and training for children, uh, and, um, as Naomi said, the ma of hierarchy of needs, people and children just don't have this identity. They don't have a, their own sense of identity. And, and, and that can lead to devastating effects of people going into prison. And, and it appears from what for said as well, when people come out to prison, their sense of identity is still very much in question. Uh, again, through, through education I think of the general public, um, you know, people are subject to abuse and so forth. And, and I think that's one of the key factors that people need to continue to work on is allowing people and encouraging people at both ends of the spectrum before and prison, um, to maintain and give people a sense of identity.

Speaker 1: 22:15

And farra, where do you see the future for women with lived experience? What would be your vision for the future?

Speaker 2: 22:22

I think first of all, we, we need to challenge this ridiculous idea of 500 more places. Cause that's just, to me, that's just so wrong on so many levels. It just goes against sanity and what we know works. And I think we need to, you know, there's a lot of talk of empowerment and people say to us, Oh, the V is amazing. It's so empowering. You know, you, you give these women a voice, um, you give them a platform, but we don't do any of that. You know, everyone has a voice, everyone has a platform. It's just, it's a matter of amplifying what we believe is the right thing to do and, and the right courses to take. Because I think this, this language of, um, us giving or, or society giving, um, everyone occupies space. We all keep my physical space and we will occupy, you know, intellectual space as well. And it's about creating an environment where even if I disagree with you, and even if you support mag far or whatever madness, you know, you want to do, I still have to respect that that's your opinion. And you have reasons for having that opinion. And, and I think in the same way that, that, you know, the language of, of criminal justice, you know, um, I noticed Rob and Nomi were both really, really careful about the language. And I really appreciate not calling people ex offenders or ex prisoners because that thing of identity is just so important. If I'm always going to be an ex-offender, at what point do I stop being offensive? So I, I mean, for the future, I, I agree with, with Rob, I think, um, the pandemic's given people a a tiny taste of prison without Uber and without Deliveroo and without your mobile phone, you know? Um, and I think it's made people, some people a bit more compassionate and, and I think it's opened a door. I mean, we're questioning so many things that the, that the English government and the Irish government are doing. They're so wrong on so many levels. So I think in a way it's, it's easy to push against existing orthodoxy because they're just being proven wrong. Everything they do is wrong. And the way that we've been doing justice and administering justice is so wrong for so long. You know, perhaps this is an open door that we can, we can push again.

Speaker 1: 24:39

And what about you, Claire? What do you see happening in the next 18 months? What do you hope will happen?

Speaker 3: 24:46

Well, I, I mean, I'm hoping that yeah, that people, some of the public will, yeah, will, through their experience, um, have greater understanding and that, yeah, maybe some the government and um, charities and other organizations, you know, might be more supportive in, um, engaging more experts through experience TAVR voice and for, um, you know, women. Cuz I think women, um, have suffer through the legacy of the Victorian times when, um, you know, when they literally were silenced and they couldn't speak out. And my experience in prison was a lot of women couldn't speak out and they didn't have, they didn't, you know, they felt that they couldn't, um, because of their experience in their lives. But I think more and more, and that's why I say up a lot of the magazines, was to try and give women a voice and to give something. And I think if you, if women are trying to, women are encouraged to speak out and to, and you know, to not be frightened about engaging and to be encouraged, um, to be part of the solution, to be encouraged to apply for, um, work that, you know, that they, they might feel that they didn't have the tools for, but they have that, that's, they're the most qualified because of their experience cuz they are experts. And, you know, the, the more that, uh, that that can happen in the future, I think the more society will benefit. And I think the, the more chance women will have and all prisoners will have to, to try and, um, move forward and to turn, you know, and to start a new beginning and start fresh. Cause I find that those people that I'm aware of who have been, um, encouraged to speak out and encouraged to, um, been given certain tools of, you know, they're the ones that have benefited and succeeded. And I think that is, that to me is the way forward. And that's the way every woman will, will benefit from, or every person the whole of society will benefit from because they will feel valued and feel, um, self worth. You know, that's, they're more likely to succeed in their life in the future and society can then benefit as a whole.

Speaker 1: 27:02

Wow. Thank you so much Claire. And to the other panelists that brings to a close our third part of three of this podcast included in our Someone's daughter podcast series, A discussion today which has been about the role of women who have lived experience and may be part of the solution to the entrenched problems of re-offending and crime. Thank you so much. Naomi Harlow, Rob Walsh, Farra dmg, and Claire Bartow. The View would also like to thank leading law firm, Insta Law, and Garnica 37 legal chambers for their sponsorship and support of someone's daughter, Experts in prison law and human rights, defending the rights of people across the world. You can go online and search for someone's daughter to see powerful women photographed by world renowned and acclaimed photographers. Read their stories in The View Magazine and be inspired by these very shocking narratives, but also by these excellent constructive solutions. I Madelina Alberto. And this Rebel podcast is a production of The View Magazine. You can find the View Magazine across our social media where we are. Rebel Justice. The View Magazine is available online via subscription and as a digital download on the view mag.org.uk. Support Amplify, donate.