In today’s episode of our Someone's Daughter Podcast, we’ll continue discussing WOMEN AND JUSTICE. Narince Erkan, president of Durham Rebel Justice Society, will be speaking with Hema Vyas, Life Leadership Mentor and omnipreneurial psychologist; Sue Wheatcroft, Mental Health Activist and woman with lived experience in the justice system; Amanda Hawick, Shetland Councillor and independent business owner; and Susan Pease Banitt, an award-winning author, psychotherapist and pioneer in the field of alternative therapies in psychological healing. You will hear very powerful shares and solution oriented ideas from their fields of expertise.
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In today’s episode of our Someone's Daughter Podcast, we’ll continue discussing WOMEN AND JUSTICE. Narince Erkan, president of Durham Rebel Justice Society, will be speaking with Hema Vyas, Life Leadership Mentor and omnipreneurial psychologist; Sue Wheatcroft, Mental Health Activist and woman with lived experience in the justice system; Amanda Hawick, Shetland Councillor and independent business owner; and Susan Pease Banitt, an award-winning author, psychotherapist and pioneer in the field of alternative therapies in psychological healing. You will hear very powerful shares and solution oriented ideas from their fields of expertise.
For more unmissable content from The View sign up here
We want to change the way you see justice. Welcome to the View Magazine's, Revel Justice podcast. This is the second part of episode 11 from our someone's daughter podcast series. In today's episode, we'll be discussing Women and justice Noria Arcan, President of Do Rebel Justice Society, will be speaking with Hema VAAs, life leadership mentor and entrepreneurial psychologist, Sue Wheatcroft, mental health activist and woman with lived experience in the justice system, Amanda Hoick, Shetland counselor and independent business owner. And Susan Pease Bennett, an award-winning author, psychotherapist, and pioneer in the field of alternative therapies in psychological healing. We will continue to hear very powerful shares and solution-oriented ideas from the fields of expertise. I will hand it over to Narin.
Speaker 2:So the first question, um, that was asked by some of the audience was, um, do you think the British criminal justice system should adopt a far rate of focus on rehabilitation of women incarcerated such as, as in Sweden,
Speaker 3:As opposed to what<laugh>? Right. I mean, what I think that is the big question though is like, what is the goal here? And when we get clear on what the goal is, if we really want people to be more functional coming out of prison than when they went in, then we need to redesign the system so that it, it makes that happen. Right?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. And I would, I would say I totally agree with you and I would add that across the board. You know, we need so many different structures in place. There are different levels of crying and different reasons, and, you know, you to just put everyone into one space is not going to serve anybody ultimately. And so we need better rehabilitation centers. We need centers where you can educate people and help, you know, the, uh, women understand why they're doing what they're doing, what's gone on, what can change. That change is possible. And I think that, you know, our system at the moment changed it is, doesn't even factor into it. You know, it is purely a punitive system. It is not about how can we support them to really take time out to look at why they did what they did to get the support to, to bring about transformation. The whole point of it is to come out transformed. And I would say if transformation's going to happen, it often happens at the moment when they get caught it's wake up call. If it doesn't happen then, then really more support is absolutely needed. And so much more work needs to go into that. It's, for me, it, it starts with leadership. We need better leaders who are willing to take on these causes, not just people like us. Absolutely fantastic that we're all here, you know, talking about this and putting our heart and soul into it, but you know, it's top down, right? If change doesn't happen at the top, then it's, you are sort of going against the tide and, and it's just harder. But we definitely need a better system.
Speaker 5:I think whatever happens, we've got to include people with lived experience in it because they're the people that know what happens on the ground and day to day. Because if you get, um, a dive, I used to be on a prison partnership board of the director of prisons, and he only knew what his managers was telling him. Obviously, he didn't know what went on on the wing day to day. So I, I brought the, the example of my dislocated shoulder, um, and it took them five days to allow me to go to hospital. Trevor Michelle would've put back because, uh, security didn't want me to go. And so the director of prisons at the time said, Well, that's just an isolated incident. And I said, But how do you know that? You know, And, and we did a study on it. Um, and there's a lot of, not that particular incident we didn't come across again, but there was lots of different things, especially people with cancer who, uh, weren't getting the results, uh, weren't getting a, an appointment for an assessment on time. There was unnecessary deaths through cancer because of that. And the director of prisons doesn't know that that's happening. It's not told things like that. So if you get someone with lift experience on a, uh, high strategic level board to bring things to the agenda to get Ed in action, I think that's, that's one of the ways forward anyway,
Speaker 6:I think, uh, yes, I think certainly things that I've been here tonight pursuing all that, uh, with the English system, I think I feel absolutely shock in what's going on in there. Um, in Scotland we do have the, a very, very different system. We have been looking at modeling even our prison, uh, system in Scotland, uh, more comparison to the Iceland prison system where they have open cells and prisoners and staff actually share open space. And it's all more about getting a sense of, um, sharing the community together. I, I can't imagine what goes on in the prisons in England, hearing even Sue speak tonight, that prisoners are, are being treated inhumanely. It's a, it's a clear breach of human rights going on. Um, and I think that fundamentally that the, the system has to change, has to change, cannot continue to why, why it's going.
Speaker 2:Um, right. Well, the next question is how can students contribute to a fairer criminal justice system?
Speaker 4:I would imagine it's probably this age. So the age, um, you know, between 1821, you know, studying law, maybe 22, 23 even. And I would say it's, it's about, you know, also having the information, because so many people plead ignorance. They don't know this is going on. Unless you've had something like Sue or you've had someone who you know, has been in prison and you know exactly what they've gone through. Most of society is oblivious. And so we need more information. So as students, you can definitely start taking an active interest, but also sharing with others who may not know what's going on. Because I'm sure like, you know, a lot of society, you know, people care about humans. We know that people care about other people, They just don't know this is happening. And so I think it's really, really important to get the message out there that these sort of things are happening. It's not rare occurrences that they happen far more often than we think. And, you know, my experience with people I know who've been in and out of prisons a hundred percent, it is absolutely a dehumanizing experience. It does not, um, allow them to grow in any way unless they do their own growth. And I would say that goes against the purpose. So yeah. In information, having information, spreading information,
Speaker 3:Yeah. I don't know if, um, UK has had the same problem with cancel culture among their younger activists as, as we have. Um, my problem with that is that it really hasn't affected any change to really affect change. And to be an effective activist, you have to have some power and you need to be involved in legislation, You need to get onto boards, uh, you need to write pieces of like letters to the editor, things were, um, you're not just in an echo chamber with people who agree with you, where you are actually reaching out to hearts and minds who might have a different experience. Um, and if you're a young activist, I would say find an older effective activist to be your mentor. Don't keep echo chambering each other cuz that's not changing anything. And in fact, creating a wedge between generations really start testifying, start researching, start really, that will make real change. You'd be surprised how little it takes to get your voice heard legislatively,<laugh>. Um, it seems big and daunting when you're outside the system, but, um, start reaching out to your local representatives at the lowest level. Most change happens locally and not, doesn't have to be a big national program necessarily, um, is, you know, Hema said, if you have big leaders, that's, that's great, but oftentimes the leaders wanna keep their constituents, right? So if you organize locally and work your way up that way in a grassroots way, it's also extremely powerful.
Speaker 2:Just the perfect moment, because I was about to just segue onto, um, urging people to write to their mps. So they were, um, the members of Parliament in their constituency. Um, and if students want to get involved and wanna write to their mps about the domestic Abuse Act or, you know, um, the prison system, things like that, there's a really good template where you can send that and be involved. Like you said.
Speaker 6:Can I say, certainly, uh, students want to get involved, uh, in the Scottish system. We, uh, the prison inspector have appointed students as IPMs independent prison monitors doing the criminal justice. Uh, Laura lawyers and training are coming in and they're having real impact directly working with the prisoners and seen all the problems firsthand. So it's, uh, it's a huge step up for the learning and, and how they can go forward. And I would agree, lobby your MP log lobby, your local counselors, get studying and, and get your voices hard. But, but get involved that at whatever level you can on any organization you can age shouldn't be, uh, disability.
Speaker 5:It's also important to, uh, let people realize that it, this could happen to anyone. You know, the, um, I knew a, a 61 year old lady who'd never been in trouble with a police, and, um, she got 44 days in prison for nonpayment of council tax. She wasn't, uh, she was exempt from council textbook. She hadn't filled in the appropriate form, so she spent 44 days in prison. So it really, it, these things can happen to anyone. So, uh, and I think it, that's one way of getting through to people by saying that.
Speaker 2:So the next question is, I suppose, um, how has the pandemic affected the justice system? You know, um, just general topic that the questions bit vague, but if you guys wanna talk about little bit how the pandemic has been, um, affected the criminal justice, especially women.
Speaker 5:Well, lockdown doesn't, uh, doesn't help being, uh, locked in yourself for hours and hours each day. I mean, it affects everything. It affects the collar, your power, it, it affects, you know, the lack of exercise. Um, it affects all aspects of your life. There's nothing good that can come from it has trial necessary. It's been, I'm not sure, I I've not, I don't know the figures on, on covid related deaths in prison.
Speaker 6:I think certainly the pandemic has had huge implications for women in prison. Any women coming into prison in Scotland, I'm, I'm not sure the English system's been working on remand. The coordinates has been pushed back and pushed back. There's backlogs of trial dates waiting to go, Hey, people are being held for longer than what they should be. Uh, there was the, the basic rights, uh, uh, prisoners in lockdown, not being able to have family time visits. Rehabilitation is, is huge on family contact. Uh, huge shift in the Scottish prisons to accommodate, um, all those areas, video conferencing, uh, and increase significantly. So we had, um, contact with women and their children and their partners. Um, it's going to take quite a while now that the pandemic's come into the end to get to all those backlog cases. Um, cte, I mean, there's been so many trials that's been delayed and referred, uh, and people are still sitting there, uh, and remand and possibly they might never have been in prison in the first place. So it's having huge implications, uh, the, the pandemic in the justice system.
Speaker 2:I also want ask, um, how do you think we can create a more rehabilitative atmosphere for women in the criminal justice system and also how we can take away from the harmful branding of them as merely criminals?
Speaker 3:That's a really big question,<laugh>, that has a multidimensional answer, right? That's kind of an entire, I mean, we could talk about misogyny and patriarchy and othering and scapegoating and all these things. Um, but I think at a, at a very practical level, I mentioned that I know a lot of people in the yoga service community, and they've been having, um, they've even gone into death row, acquaintance state prison in California. Um, those classes are, they change the behavior of the inmates and then it changes the guard's view of them.<laugh>, you know, it humanizes them. They still have parameters like, you know, I'm sure sue, like, it's not okay to cry in prison, especially if you're a dude. Um, but even for women, you can get solitary just for crying. Um, so, so there's a limit to how much they can let go in a yoga, but they can relax. And, um, I'd say that's another way people can get involved. You can just take a program inside a prison. I don't know if the UK's open to that or not. Another thing is reiki um, reiki practices have been shown in many institutions to change the behavior of the people in those institutions. And the guards often are as traumatized or more traumatized than some of the people in the prisons. Um, and they're also abusers as we know, who work as guards sometimes. So, um, really having mental health all around, not just considering for the people in the prisons, but the people who work in the prisons and having eyes on those people and know that they're at risk of acting out their trauma in that setting, as has been shown in many experiments, um, will be really helpful.
Speaker 5:I'm a, uh, a big fan of, uh, case studies and raising awareness that way of telling people's stories to everyone so that they, uh, because public perception is sort of, well, if you don't, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Uh, you must have done something bad otherwise you wouldn't be in prison. And I think unless they're, they're shown that that's not necessarily the case. And, uh, which is, which is easy. I do presentations for, for my local county, um, voluntary sector forums. And they, they don't know anything. They didn't know anything before I told them about the statistics about most people in, uh, you know, women in prisoner more likely to go there because of for theft than something, uh, violent. Uh, they don't know all this. They just, they just assume that we're all violent criminals. But if you, if you let people know this, you know, it's just raising awareness. I think that's, that's can go a long way. And you know,
Speaker 4:It's raising awareness and everything that you've said, um, both of you on this subject. And I would also say that education, we make it more rehabilitative by, by educating people and having more people there to actually go into prisons to help, you know, deal with a lot of things like, you know, the shame mental health issues come about because not just the trauma, but also the shame and the stigma attached to being a criminal, being in prison. And as you said, Sue, that the truth is that, you know, some people don't necessarily belong there. Um, and what they've done, you know, should absolutely have been dealt with in a very different way. But again, if we can get the support it needs more support channeling some of the money that's going into creating more prisons and all of these things, then channeling that money into getting people who really, really train and understand how to support people. And that includes the people who work there because I think they're perpetuating a lot of the shame. They're perpetuating a lot of the violence and or they're certainly allowing it, turning a blind eye to it, not trusting what somebody's saying, not believing if they need some real medical attention. Where does all of that come from? All of that comes from, you know, a disconnect, a lack of understanding themselves and understanding how their own experiences are informing them as to how to be in the world. And so I think, you know, there's a lot more support that's really, really needed there. And part of, you know, what happened with covid and lockdowns and everything, the trauma got exacerbated for everybody. And so one of the things that's probably needed is that, you know, to help really support the people through a redirection of funds into training. And not just dealing with the problem as an ongoing problem, but to actually change directions somewhat and to take a step back and go, Okay, where else can we channel this, um, the resources and how else can we apply these resources? We know things like meditation definitely works. We know things like, um, yoga can help. We know things like giving them different courses and education that allows them to feel that they're purposeful, that they have a sense of meaning in their lives, is going to help them know end and especially rehabilitate in terms of being able to go out into the world and, and find work. So there's so much more that can be done in terms of education and training. So that's one of the things that I would say needs to be addressed.
Speaker 5:I agree, Hema, that more money should be put into prevention the community, because it'll save money in the long run. It's very expensive to keep some money in prison. But I think a, a quite important barrier is that prison reform is not a vote winner. And, uh, I think that is a really big barrier to, um, you know, if lots of people need money in the community and you give it to maybe ex offenders or, um, into substance abuse and things like that, then that's not, not going to win any votes. And so, and I think that's why we're getting 500 new beds for women's prisons.
Speaker 4:I agree with that, Sue, that you know, it's not a vote winner. And that's why we need to work hard at getting more information about the ripple effect on society, you know, because you know, when you think about a woman, it's not just her that it impacts, it's everybody around her. It's the families, often they have, you know, children and, um, and so there's a ripple effect. Women are matriarchs and they hold families together often. And so it's really, really important. And also they become role models. You know, if you have, um, a children who are seeing that happen to their mother or, you know, then they, they role model that and it's, there is so much, um, such negative impact from it. So it should really be vote winner. And how, I guess that's the thing that we are here to talk about. How can we get to that point? And then it's something that's gonna take time. But, you know, the fact that we're having these conversations is so important and it's a start, right?
Speaker 6:I think, um, the, the word criminal, um, if you we're all human beings, we're human beings and some human beings make a mistake and to make a mistake in the enter the prison life, um, the Liberty's been taken for a short period of time on non-violent crimes and short silences, and they will be released. And I think women that's been incarcerated and been in prison, I think they should, like, you're doing so, so, so get, get out there, get speaking to people and get to events and become speakers and educate people and let them know what's going on. I think as homicide stigma and shame is, it is just dreadful, but, you know, but it's more dreadful. It's, it's not the, the women that's done their crime and served their time, it's society and how society treats the person. Like the, it's something they should never shake off because they've spent a, a period of their life incarcerated for, for reasons that nobody knows about. And I think stigma needs to change. And it's sometimes put it in some places how people behave, uh, treating other people like, uh, like they still have some sort of payback, uh, to pay. And as suicide, anybody at any time could end up in a prison because in a snappier finger, something ridiculous could happen. I've had many a friend, female friend that's been incarcerated, been in prison for different things. And while in prison they've studied hard, they've educated themselves, they've worked, they, they left prison with qualifications. And one we friend, she's, she's very, very high up new in an organization, but she lives in fear that nobody ever finds that she was incarcerated. Nobody knows her past because they would treat her differently. And it's society that needs to change a lot more than the women.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, and I wanna add to that, um, think that's very well said, Amanda. Um, that to also look at cultures that do, do it differently. So I'm, I'm posting a link, um, Michael Moore made a movie called Where to Invade Next. And a big section of that movie is, uh, Norwegian Prison Systems, a very, very different truly rehabilitative model. And seeing, I think sometimes we need to see something in order to move towards it<laugh> and see that it can work and that it does benefit us. So I've posted a link to a YouTube that has the section of that movie in it.
Speaker 6:We need change and global change. Yes.
Speaker 4:And if I can just add to what, um, Amanda was saying, and thank you for sharing Susan. Um, but you know, one of the big impacts is when they come out of prison, if they try to apply for a job, you know, there's a section where if, you know, had any criminal offenses and, and that stop people from being able to get back into the workforce. And so, you know, that's, that's has to change, especially when the crime, whatever they, they were in prison for, doesn't relate to the job in any way, shape or form. So that's another thing that, you know, we need to look at. Society needs to think about how they can help these women get back, um, into life and into work and, and not be stigmatized this way.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Um, I have one last question that's from the chat. Um, and that is, um, can prisons ever be truly a true trauma informed environment? Um, and if so, um, how can we achieve this?
Speaker 5:I think we have to believe it's possible, but I don't know if, um, certainly in England, if they would spend resources on, on making it a trauma informed environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the prison system as it stands in the US and sounds like the uk it would be very challenging to do that. Can it be done? Yes. Watch the clip from Michael Moore's video. It's very trauma informed, but the, you know, mandatory strip searches or things, the, just the power over dynamic with the guards and the prisoners is problematic because so many people have abuse and trauma issues that had to do with authority figures, right? So that just would have to be a comprehensive sort of rethinking of, like, again, coming back to the question I posed first, this is like, what are we trying to accomplish here?<laugh>, let's start there. What are we trying to accomplish? And then use the science that we have to design a system that actually accomplishes that.
Speaker 6:I'll give you just a, a shock in statistic that when I, I run, um, with the other counselors, uh, national conferences in Scotland on, uh, female political counselors at local levels. And we were given the, the shock in statistic that it would be 2089 even before there's a 50 50 balance on female to males. And I think for women, um, to have an equal balance of at least men and women deciding futures rather it be dominated by men, that makes all the decisions is an absolute imperative. And, and that movement has to, has to go faster. 2089, I mean, I'll be dating worried by dying. I'd like to hope it'll happen, but it's a long time away. And, and we need it. We need, we need women supporting women. And, um, if, if, if we can't have more women that understands the needs and and power to help, then wouldn't feel in society.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I would just, uh, like to add to that, that, you know, I do, I do think it is something that is possible and I think it's either far more possible today than it was five years ago, 10 years ago. So we're heading in the right direction. And I think that, you know, what's possible is still a far cry from where we are. So when heading in the right direction, the fact that we are all, you know, aware of this and becoming more aware of this is so, so important. And all we can do is keep on doing that because we grow in numbers. It's the hundredth monkey syndrome. The, the more people who know it, the, the more people who become more aware of it. And once, once that knowledge is there, you can't take it away at the moment, a lot of people sort of plead the ignorance in the system. It's like, well, we don't know. And that's not possible. The more people who start having conversations about what is possible and what does happen and start making it happen, then we, it's going to grow in momentum. And I think it can happen a lot, lot sooner. And I certainly hope that it can happen a lot sooner.
Speaker 2:Thank you everyone. So I think that concludes our panel today. Um, I just wanna thank all the speakers, um, for very inspiring, fruitful discussion that was very, you know, educational for me, I'm sure for everyone else, um, listening in as well. Um, thank you to everyone who joined us today. Um, if this panel interested you, um, and you are a student at Dham University, please join our society. Um, we'll be putting more events and socials throughout this term and next term you can also get a membership that includes a subscription to Review Magazine. So, um, this magazine, all the money, um, that they are raising is going to be the, to, to go into the printing and publishing of it, um, which then will be distributed to English Women's presence, um, and help us be the voice for women who are silence currently in the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. This concludes our episode 11 from our someone's daughter podcast series. Thank you so much Norin for hosting this very powerful talk. And thank all the panelists for your wonderful shares. He AVAs Sui Croft, Amanda Howick, and Susan pba. You can go online to learn more about the View Magazine in our someone's daughter campaign, representing women with lived experience in the criminal justice system. Thank you for listening.